Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

The context of my asking the question about the text, has nothing to do with your understanding of the text according to the context of the text. Why should your understanding of the text change according to my motive in asking you to explain your understanding of the text?

The context of my asking you the question has no bearing on what you understand the text to be saying in its context. Why should my motive in asking you about your understanding of the text in its context, change the way you understand the text in its context? That makes no sense.

Under the Old Covenant, sins separate from God. Under the New Covenant all sins are forgiven, and it is unwillingness to believe God that separates from God. This is how the scope of the New Covenant atonement is to all men, but those who do not believe God still cannot enter into Christ and the Kingdom of God.

Are you asking me or are you telling me?

So...when you say "power of grace" are you thinking along the lines of how God's miraculous power redeemed/rescued his covenant people from their bondage in Egypt?

• The Father's intended recipients of the NC promises was never limited as you present it. Consider the scope of the Abrahamic Covenant and 'the mystery of Christ' inclusion of the nations.
• Coordinately, Christ's redemption was not narrow. If you study the Scriptures that speak of redemption you'll see this.

• A few observations and thoughts:
  • Firstly, branch out in context and see that this is not in the context of Jews only. See chapter 3 and then 4 following these verses.
  • Note the temporal marker in 4:4 - the fullness of [a period of] time had come.
  • In light of this temporal statement, is "under law" speaking simply about the law or the era of law that in context has ended now that The Faith had come?
    • This is the context and Paul has just given an example not from Jewish culture, but from Greek-Roman culture and their child-guardian concept.
    • The context is speaking of a temporal transition from childhood to becoming sons - "adoption as sons" 4:5-6 and "heirs" 4:7.
    • The old era of law was ended and the new era of The Faith in Christ had come.
  • Redemption from imprisonment under sin became available to the nations in the Seed of Abraham pursuant to the Abrahamic Covenant.
    • All who believe become seed of Abraham in the Seed of Abraham and heirs according to God's promise.
    • The promised Spirit was received through The Faith 3:14

But that's not what Gal 4:4-7 is saying. It says God's Son came to redeem those under the law. It doesn't say he came to redeem each and every person in the world.

Furthermore, the scope of the NC is narrow! It extends to only God's chosen, covenant people (Jer 31:31).

Secondly, there are no conditions to the unilateral NC, so why are you talking about believing God?

Thirdly, Jesus himself said his atonement was limited to only his sheep (Jn 10:15-16), not sheep and goats.

Fourthly, he explicitly stated at the Last Supper that the blood of the new covenant was poured out for "you" (Lk 22:20), i.e. his Jewish disciples with him who were born under the Law...and by extension the remainder of God's chosen, covenant people, e.g. Jesus' blood that was poured out for "MANY for the forgiveness of sins" (Mat 26:27; Mk 14:24), which includes both covenant flocks of sheep in Jn 10:15-16. And "many" does not = all in the distributive sense.

In order for Christ's atonement under the New Covenant to be universal in the quantitative sense, you would have to show where in scripture God ever made his unconditional, unilateral NC with the entire world. Jesus certainly understood the terms of the NC and his mission: He came to die for his Father's chosen, covenant people -- and no others!

Its your will that is not free. Ever since you enslaved yourself to that damnable doctrine you keep hammering nails into you head with.

Yes! Man is BORN enslaved to sin.
That much is truth.

But, as far as what God's power of grace does in making the soul able to think without allowing the flesh to control its desires and thoughts? You are totally oblivious. You have become like a whip bearing slave master, wanting us all to submit to your will in how you want us to think. Talk about depravity at work? You are driven by a false doctrine!

God's grace is REAL POWER! Its Enabling power!

Grace enables us not to walk in our naturally born depravity of the flesh that destroys free will.

GOD'S GRACE GIVES MAN THE ABILITY TO HAVE FREE WILL!


Grace is power!

That is how God's grace applied to Paul's walk in a time of being weak, hopeless, and helpless.
Its actual supernaturally given enabling power! Not simply 'unmerited favor', as so many in their
thinking obscure the effectiveness and understanding of God getting us to become as He wants us to be.

God sovereignly decides when His Grace is to be applied, and to whom.

Since the Cross paid for all unbelievers sins? God is free to apply His enabling grace to free a unbeliever's soul from his flesh.
Freeing a soul from the flesh with its overpowering depravity. Freeing a soul to enable moments of lucid thought to decide
about what he wants to believe. That is having free will is restored by grace, as God gives His grace to any man God wishes to consider about salvation or sound doctrine.

Now go stomp elsewhere.

Please.... Learn to walk in the Spirit.

You've just disregarded everything I said re: the temporal marker. This is an example of why it's mostly a waste of time attempting to discuss anything with you.

If Paul is speaking temporally, and virtually every piece of context suggests he may well be, then under the era of law all men were in effect under law. Under the era of grace, aka the NC, the era of law and OC was ended, and the era of grace and faith and NC began.

If this is the context, then redemption provision was made available to all humanity, Jews & Gentiles, in accordance with the Abrahamic Covenant and promised Spirit to all who believe. And, thus, it does say He came to redeem all who were imprisoned under sin under the era of law. And this concept of redemption is in agreement with other verses that speak of those in Christ having been redeemed.


All answered above. The Abrahamic Covenant blessing for all nations. The NC was made with Israel and Judah and per the mystery of Christ was made available to all nations and is entered into by all - Jews & Gentile - who believe Jesus is the Christ.

Seems pretty limited to me in Jer 31:31. Even the "scope of the Abrahamic Covenant" speaks to this limitation! Where in this unconditional covenant did God promise Abraham that he would become the father of the entire planet in the universal sense!? I don't see that kind of promise anywhere, in any of the reiterations of it. Where did God promise the patriarch that he would become the father of each and every person in the nations? For that matter, the promise doesn't even say that Abraham would be made the father of ALL the nations, let alone each and every person in all the nations (Gen 17:4-6)! I always marvel how NR "miraculously" make "many" = "all".

In fact, from the very beginning after the Fall, God made it crystal clear that there would always be two kinds of spiritual people in this world -- the Woman's seed and the Serpent's. God never intended to save all, so why wouldn't the benefits of the Son's death be limited and accrue to those he always intended to save in eternity?

Oh...so you do believe in Effectual Grace -- in God's miraculous power? Kool! And now you also subscribe to the biblical teaching of FREEDOM. You have finally come to realize that sinners must be set FREE FROM their bondage to the flesh, to Satan and to the world in order to be FREE TO seek God, seek Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding that comes only from God's indwelling Spirit who imparts the Fear of the Lord into a person's heart that enables him to eventually come to believe the Gospel and repent of his sins? You have finally come to understand that sinners must be given eyes to see, ears to hear -- in fact to be rescued from the kingdom of Death's darkness and be raised up to a new life (Col 1:13). You have actually come to see that sinners are helpless (Rom 5:6) and need to be rescued just as the ancient Hebrews in Egypt were, right?

I'm tickled pink that God has finally enabled you to personally take Prov 12:1 to heart so that you can see all these magnificent truths for yourself, most especially the myth and great lie of "free" will in any unregenerate person that is perpetrated by the evil one. I'm as happy as a piglet rolling in the mud that God has set you free FROM the darkness of error and false gospels and has brought you into the light of the one and only true Gospel Truth that God's saints have seen for centuries, and yours truly for over 40 years.

Are you bypassing the necessity of Faith I've mentioned a few times now?

The father of many nations and the command to make disciples of all the nations becomes those of all the nations who believe.

The Bible speaks in generalities and in superlatives. An example:

1 Tim. 4:8-10 NKJ 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/particularly of those who believe.

• We just get to adjust to what it says.
• The Living God is the Savior of all men
• The living God is the Savior of all men - particularly those men who believe
• In a sense, a similar concept of lesser > greater is seen in v.8:
  • bodily exercise profits a little
    • godliness profits for everything
    • God is the Savior particularly of men who believe
  • God is the Savior of all men

Thoughts:

• In a sense God's Salvation and His being Savior of all men profits all to some degree just as bodily exercise does
  • There is salt and light in the world
  • God's Good News is being spread by His people He sends to proclaim
  • There are blessings of God's people with His Spirit in Christ living various degrees of godliness - righteousness
  • And so on... What would the world be like without His Children in Christ in Spirit?
• God's Salvation particularly for men who believe and their resulting godliness is profitable for everything forever

Unlimited Atonement the way I read the Word fits into this mold. God is the Savior of all men. He has provided unlimited atonement. He has provided redemption. His Gospel is the call to all. Etc...

Ultimately it's particularly for those who believe.

You really don't read too swell. God did not promise Abraham that he would become the father of ALL nations, let alone the father of each and every person in MANY nations.

Now as far as for whom Christ came to redeem, Gal 4:4-7 harmonizes quite nicely with Lk 1:68 where it is written of the Messiah "He has come and redeemed HIS PEOPLE! And also with Gal 3:13-14 wherein Paul said that Christ redeemed US (chosen, covenant people) from the curse of the law and redeemed US in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles. (Note it doesn't say that redemption applies to each and every Gentile on the planet!). And Peter told messianic believers that YOU (the elect to whom he was writing) were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers (1Pet 1:18). And Rev 14:3 seems to be speaking to Jewish believers, i..e. the "1444,000" who had been redeemed.

Furthermore, Anna the prophetess spoke of the Christ child to all who were looking forward the redemption of Jerusalem (Lk 2:38). Jesus became Redemption to the Corinthian Church (1Cor 1:30). The Ephesian Church had Redemption through Christ's blood (Eph 1:7, 14) and were told that they were sealed until the day of their Redemption (Eph 4:30). And the Colossian Church, whom God rescued from the dominion of darkness, had redemption and forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14). And Christ obtained eternal redemption by his own blood -- and by this reason is the mediator of a New Covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised inheritance (Heb 9:12-15).

I don't see this animal "universal redemption" in scripture, anymore than I do universal/unlimited atonement for all.

P.S. Yeah, I did disregard your "temporal marker" since your opening paragraph made no sense. So why bother to go further?

[QUOTE="studier, post: 5335722, member: 330481"]Are you bypassing the necessity of Faith I've mentioned a few times now?

The father of many nations and the command to make disciples of all the nations becomes those of all the nations who believe.

The Bible speaks in generalities and in superlatives. An example:

1 Tim. 4:8-10 NKJ 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/particularly of those who believe.

• We just get to adjust to what it says.
• The Living God is the Savior of all men
• The living God is the Savior of all men - particularly those men who believe
• In a sense, a similar concept of lesser > greater is seen in v.8:
  • bodily exercise profits a little
    • godliness profits for everything
    • God is the Savior particularly of men who believe
  • God is the Savior of all men

Thoughts:

• In a sense God's Salvation and His being Savior of all men profits all to some degree just as bodily exercise does
  • There is salt and light in the world
  • God's Good News is being spread by His people He sends to proclaim
  • There are blessings of God's people with His Spirit in Christ living various degrees of godliness - righteousness
  • And so on... What would the world be like without His Children in Christ in Spirit?
• God's Salvation particularly for men who believe and their resulting godliness is profitable for everything forever

Unlimited Atonement the way I read the Word fits into this mold. God is the Savior of all men. He has provided unlimited atonement. He has provided redemption. His Gospel is the call to all. Etc...

Ultimately it's particularly for those who believe.[/QUOTE]

Ahh...I thought you'd never ask! But PRAISE God you have!

So...I'm sure you can show me in the unconditional New Covenant precisely where God imposed the condition of faith upon the House of Israel and House of Judah?

Are you denying once again that you add to Scripture? Gosh! And you now want me to keep a dossier on you?



Hmmm, you know, it would be a lot easier if you just got honest about it...

The Seed of Abraham commanded His men to go disciple all the nations. The Apostle to the nations mission was faith-obedience in all the nations. "many nations" simply means "a great number of nations." It's pretty simple to get the general concept and I think it's clear what Christ's delegated mission is and has been for 2,000 years as men in Christ strive to translate His Word into every known language and to visit every place on earth in His name.

Not much I can do if you choose to work so hard to ignore the requirement of Faith to build straw men.

Redemption is in Christ Jesus for all who believe, whether Jew or Greek per Rom3. Again, the requirement of Faith-Obedience in all the nations.

1Tim4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/particularly of those who believe

You didn't like that verse, did you...

Not only for The Just/Elect/
But for them first, The rest will come during the Mellinium.

WOW! In all four of your examples you use the negative inference fallacy in attempting to "prove" your doctrine is in the Bible. Obvious;y, logic is not a Calvinist strong suit.

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - From this verse, did Jesus love and give Himself only for Saul of Tarsus? If not, why not?

[QUOTE="studier, post: 5335765, member: 330481"]The Seed of Abraham commanded His men to go disciple all the nations. The Apostle to the nations mission was faith-obedience in all the nations. "many nations" simply means "a great number of nations." It's pretty simple to get the general concept and I think it's clear what Christ's delegated mission is and has been for 2,000 years as men in Christ strive to translate His Word into every known language and to visit every place on earth in His name.

Not much I can do if you choose to work so hard to ignore the requirement of Faith to build straw men.

Redemption is in Christ Jesus for all who believe, whether Jew or Greek per Rom3. Again, the requirement of Faith-Obedience in all the nations.

1Tim4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/particularly of those who believe

You didn't like that verse, did you...[/QUOTE]

Two Things: The Great Commission and the Abrahamic Covenant are two different things. Christ commanded his chosen, covenant disciples to go to all the nations by preaching the Gospel to "all" the nations. However, the Abrahamic Covenant states that Abraham would become the father of "many" nations. But I'm glad to see that you now understand what "many" means. It certainly doesn't mean each and every planet on the globe.

Secondly, you're trying to conflate the Gospel with the New Covenant by making the requirements of the former also the conditions of the latter which is unconditional in nature. Such muddle-headed thinking accounts for the widespread confusion, chaos, misinformation, disinformation and sectarianism in the Church that result in the preaching of a false gospel and a total misunderstanding of the New Covenant of which so many purport is the basis of their personal, spiritual relationship God! The irrefutable fact remains: The New Covenant is a unilateral, unconditional covenant. No one will be able to point to any condition in this covenant. There is no requirement of faith or repentance, for that matter, in the New Covenant!

Now...the fact that you obviously cannot harmonize the above stated fact (not a straw men as you have said) with the Gospel requirements is on you, and it certainly doesn't speak well of all this spiritual understanding that all men just naturally have, according to you. That is YOUR personal, spiritual problem. Your inabilities don't change the facts! Facts are Facts whether you can comprehend them or not! Whether you can make sense out of them or not. Whether you can reconcile them or not. Has it never occurred to you that the New Covenant and the Gospel form another great paradox in scripture? Or has it ever occurred to you that the relationship between these two theological instruments presents the classical "which comes first chicken or egg" problem? Or has it ever occurred to you that the Gospel requirements are God's way of making his chosen, covenant people aware, conscious and sensitive to His promised New Covenant work within them, and that indeed they have been miraculously translated from the dominion of Darkness into his Kingdom of Light through the Knowledge and Understanding of the Gospel that resulted from the promise of God instilling the Fear of Himself within his people?

As far as 1Tim 4:10 goes, I'm way ahead of you on that verse. See my 9230 reposted just a couple of weeks ago. I hope you didn't hurt your shoulder with any robust, vigorous backslapping because you thought I have ignored that text due to any of my own inabilities, real or perceived.