Loss of salvation???
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Your comments regularly start with a jab. I dont know why you feel the need to do this.
I am not the only one who has made remarks. I would encourage you just to quote things you disagree with and state why. There is no need to suggest that someone “has no idea” how salvation works or that I cant grasp your points.
I am not the only one who has made remarks. I would encourage you just to quote things you disagree with and state why. There is no need to suggest that someone “has no idea” how salvation works or that I cant grasp your points.
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I am not jabbing at you. I am making on observation based on your responses to what I say. You keep making statements that don't correlate with what I have said and you have not given a single answer to the verses that I raise regarding never dying, or never being cast out or being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and how you can cancel any of that by virtue of your will. The latter makes me question whether you understand what has happened to you. My queries are genuine because I'm concerned, not because I'm being a "smarty pants".
You misrepresent what I say or ignore the issues I raise and continue on your merry way. I have given an explanation of every question you have asked within the texts you have raised. You can disagree if you want but at least have the courtesy to give an answer to my questions in return.
Explain how you can extricate yourself from the hand of Christ. "No means" includes a believers abject failures.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Explain how you can die again spiritually (spiritual death is what we have been saved from) when Christ said those who believe in Him will never die.
John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Explain how you can evict the Holy Spirit who has made His home in you and sealed you for the day of Resurrection.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Don't give me verses that talk about unbelievers, whom Christ never knew or those who are put on His left. These have never had salvation to begin with.
Look at the verses I raise and explain how God got it wrong by saving someone in the first place who He knew could not be saved or how your will can trump God's?
You misrepresent what I say or ignore the issues I raise and continue on your merry way. I have given an explanation of every question you have asked within the texts you have raised. You can disagree if you want but at least have the courtesy to give an answer to my questions in return.
Explain how you can extricate yourself from the hand of Christ. "No means" includes a believers abject failures.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Explain how you can die again spiritually (spiritual death is what we have been saved from) when Christ said those who believe in Him will never die.
John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Explain how you can evict the Holy Spirit who has made His home in you and sealed you for the day of Resurrection.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Don't give me verses that talk about unbelievers, whom Christ never knew or those who are put on His left. These have never had salvation to begin with.
Look at the verses I raise and explain how God got it wrong by saving someone in the first place who He knew could not be saved or how your will can trump God's?
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I feel like i have responded to all the texts you’ve provided…
Ive answered John 11 2x.
I agree that our bodies are not our own. That doesn’t mean God removes our ability to choose or autonomy.
I have answered the “sealed” passages several times. “Sealed” in the greek language does not mean to “preserve.”
I dont believe God determines our ultimate salvation. I believe he gives us the ability to choose to accept his gift of salvation…or reject it.
Ive answered John 11 2x.
I agree that our bodies are not our own. That doesn’t mean God removes our ability to choose or autonomy.
I have answered the “sealed” passages several times. “Sealed” in the greek language does not mean to “preserve.”
I dont believe God determines our ultimate salvation. I believe he gives us the ability to choose to accept his gift of salvation…or reject it.
I agree we get to choose if we believe Him or not but we don't get to choose what God determines to do with those who believe. He is the One who has determined that and He has chosen to save those who believe in Him and once God has acted, no-one can undo it.
If you don't think God is in charge of salvation we have nothing left to speak about.
Have a nice Day (of Redemption)
If you don't think God is in charge of salvation we have nothing left to speak about.
Have a nice Day (of Redemption)
I will attempt to answer your questions as best as I can.
All language (written or verbal) is expressed in the general. As much as 95% is conveyed in a rather broad sense, these verses are typical. They are not wrong but they are not all-encompassing or without exception and this is the basis of your error.
With the exceptions of legal documents or technical manuals, common communication is designed to express information in a quick and convenient way. There is nothing in these verses that suggest such a comprehensive understanding as you are suggesting. Nor can these verses be used to negate the expressly conveyed warning that we can fall into apostasy.
There are many verses in the Bible that if taken as all-encompassing would be absurd (James 1:27). I suspect you are forcing this understanding to support your theology.
I hope that I have been clear.
All language (written or verbal) is expressed in the general. As much as 95% is conveyed in a rather broad sense, these verses are typical. They are not wrong but they are not all-encompassing or without exception and this is the basis of your error.
With the exceptions of legal documents or technical manuals, common communication is designed to express information in a quick and convenient way. There is nothing in these verses that suggest such a comprehensive understanding as you are suggesting. Nor can these verses be used to negate the expressly conveyed warning that we can fall into apostasy.
There are many verses in the Bible that if taken as all-encompassing would be absurd (James 1:27). I suspect you are forcing this understanding to support your theology.
I hope that I have been clear.
Very clear. I'm left with the message the word can't be trusted to mean what it says.
Certain language cannot be taken literally like idioms, metaphors etc but there is no suggestion the verses I quoted fall into any class of non-figurative or simile language. Besides, if what you say is true, then nothing you say is worth anything. I can just take it or leave it as it suits me.
I have never negated the warnings we can fall into error and depart from the truth of the word. The very fact we are having this discussion shows, (along with pretty much every other thread on this forum), that people can depart from the faith. The difference is you assume it means loss of God's gift. I understand it means walking according to one's own understanding and loss of rewards. A good scriptural example of apostasy is found in 1Tim.4:1-5. You cannot depart (which is what apostasy is) from something you never began and God is not mocked or taken by surprise, He knows who believes and who doesn't and He doesn't save unbelievers.
You consider it absurd to help orphans and widows and to refrain from corrupt worldly pursuits????
I don't know about you, but I aim at saying what I mean and meaning what I say. My most frequent prayer is "Lord keep me to my word as you keep to Yours".
You might speak in generalizations with your tongue, it doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Certain language cannot be taken literally like idioms, metaphors etc but there is no suggestion the verses I quoted fall into any class of non-figurative or simile language. Besides, if what you say is true, then nothing you say is worth anything. I can just take it or leave it as it suits me.
I have never negated the warnings we can fall into error and depart from the truth of the word. The very fact we are having this discussion shows, (along with pretty much every other thread on this forum), that people can depart from the faith. The difference is you assume it means loss of God's gift. I understand it means walking according to one's own understanding and loss of rewards. A good scriptural example of apostasy is found in 1Tim.4:1-5. You cannot depart (which is what apostasy is) from something you never began and God is not mocked or taken by surprise, He knows who believes and who doesn't and He doesn't save unbelievers.
You consider it absurd to help orphans and widows and to refrain from corrupt worldly pursuits????
I don't know about you, but I aim at saying what I mean and meaning what I say. My most frequent prayer is "Lord keep me to my word as you keep to Yours".
You might speak in generalizations with your tongue, it doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Brother Grateful Whatever has been freely given by another can indeed be lost! Great example given here in scripture (Matt 7:15-23!!) Notice please verse 16 You will know them by their fruits another words what a person has! verse 22 these people believed they were saved!! They would never have argued unless they believed they had the goods!!
Now let us look at this scripture (1 Tim 4:1-5) One cannot fall away from something they do not first have to start with! Hence why my good brother when I go before the Lord and if an angel of the Lord says to me why should you be here, my answer will be (Phil 4:7-9) I have been in the Lord now for over 50 years, and I check myself daily!! (2 Cor 13:5-14) also (2 Peter 1:1-15!!) I hope this helps you answer your fine question!
Now let us look at this scripture (1 Tim 4:1-5) One cannot fall away from something they do not first have to start with! Hence why my good brother when I go before the Lord and if an angel of the Lord says to me why should you be here, my answer will be (Phil 4:7-9) I have been in the Lord now for over 50 years, and I check myself daily!! (2 Cor 13:5-14) also (2 Peter 1:1-15!!) I hope this helps you answer your fine question!
False prophets are not saved so doesn't really show salvation can be lost. Anything one believes that is not true does not translate to having faith. Faith comes form the word, the word is truth.
I think if anyone asks us why we should be here our answer ought to be because the Lord God is gracious and merciful and has determined to save believers and give them eternal life.
There is a difference between finding yourself spiritually alive (saved) and finding yourself walking according to the truth (on speaking terms or in fellowship). Only God can do the former (Jn3:6 Spirit gives birth to spirit) but we have a responsibility to learn from Him in accordance with the life He has given us but you can't live the life unless you are saved.
I agree with you (and commend you) for checking ourselves daily as long as we are checking ourselves against the word of God and not each other or our own understanding and/or desires.
I think if anyone asks us why we should be here our answer ought to be because the Lord God is gracious and merciful and has determined to save believers and give them eternal life.
There is a difference between finding yourself spiritually alive (saved) and finding yourself walking according to the truth (on speaking terms or in fellowship). Only God can do the former (Jn3:6 Spirit gives birth to spirit) but we have a responsibility to learn from Him in accordance with the life He has given us but you can't live the life unless you are saved.
I agree with you (and commend you) for checking ourselves daily as long as we are checking ourselves against the word of God and not each other or our own understanding and/or desires.
Hi sawdust! These people did not determine themselves to be false as is shown in verse 22, now we the people can judge others for ourselves if we wish to, but as the Bible says we are not to judge, for we ourselves we be judged by the same merit as we judge others (Matt 7:2) We can judge the fruits of others though, but your statement of false Prophets although true can only finally be determined by Jesus.
I also agree with you on the Lord being gracious to save believers, but WE have to believe! We are not made to believe we can change at any time we choose. When I was first saved I myself walked away from the faith as 1 Tim 4:1 states we can. Now some might say then you were not really saved to start with, but how would they know???
Can a person judge me?? They can but they themselves are also under the same judgment! SO!!! Let not church doctrine grow scales to our eyes, let God's Word do our talking for us! Blessing to you sawdust!!
I also agree with you on the Lord being gracious to save believers, but WE have to believe! We are not made to believe we can change at any time we choose. When I was first saved I myself walked away from the faith as 1 Tim 4:1 states we can. Now some might say then you were not really saved to start with, but how would they know???
Can a person judge me?? They can but they themselves are also under the same judgment! SO!!! Let not church doctrine grow scales to our eyes, let God's Word do our talking for us! Blessing to you sawdust!!
It doesn't matter what we think of ourselves or each other. The only opinion that has merit is God's. He determines who is true and who is false, who is saved and who is not.
I have never said otherwise regarding our responsibility to believe but it is not within our power to save ourselves, only God can do that. You can believe as hard and as long as you want but if God had not determined to save believers, then no-one would be saved. The power unto salvation is in the Gospel, the word of God, not our willingness to believe.
May the peace of the Lord be with you brighthouse98.
I have never said otherwise regarding our responsibility to believe but it is not within our power to save ourselves, only God can do that. You can believe as hard and as long as you want but if God had not determined to save believers, then no-one would be saved. The power unto salvation is in the Gospel, the word of God, not our willingness to believe.
May the peace of the Lord be with you brighthouse98.
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Come on now.
You are simply reading these four verses in a manner to line up to your theology. You are reading them as all-encompassing and without exception, they are not. You want them to be viewed as an ordinance limiting God's ability to revoke His gift of forgiveness, they are not.
Matthew 18
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
A. God canceled our debt.
B. God revoked the cancelation of the debt.
C. God can do the same to us.
This is a teaching example of the mind of God.
What you are teaching negates this truth.
You are simply reading these four verses in a manner to line up to your theology. You are reading them as all-encompassing and without exception, they are not. You want them to be viewed as an ordinance limiting God's ability to revoke His gift of forgiveness, they are not.
Matthew 18
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
A. God canceled our debt.
B. God revoked the cancelation of the debt.
C. God can do the same to us.
This is a teaching example of the mind of God.
What you are teaching negates this truth.
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How does "paying back what you owe" translate to eternal death?
I have said time and time again, God will not be mocked, not by unbelievers, not by believers. If, as a believer, you want to live in a way that is not in accordance with God's plan, you will not get away with it. If you persist, you will die and be taken from this world. You reap what you sow.
I am reading what is there. You are the one trying to make excuses for God failing to keep a believer saved.
I have said time and time again, God will not be mocked, not by unbelievers, not by believers. If, as a believer, you want to live in a way that is not in accordance with God's plan, you will not get away with it. If you persist, you will die and be taken from this world. You reap what you sow.
I am reading what is there. You are the one trying to make excuses for God failing to keep a believer saved.
I most heartly agree sawdust!!! My only point is that Jesus says to believe, or as you would say have faith. The question is how does one know for sure their belief, or their faith can really save them in the end?? As you stated and so well only the Lord knows for sure who is truly saved or not. Hence why we never take the Lord for granted! I only wanted to make clear my position on the subject, as I know you did as well, I believe we understand each other my fellow believer. blessing to you!
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I agree we get to choose if we believe Him or not but we don't get to choose what God determines to do with those who believe. He is the One who has determined that and He has chosen to save those who believe in Him and once God has acted, no-one can undo it.
If you don't think God is in charge of salvation we have nothing left to speak about.
Have a nice Day (of Redemption)
If you don't think God is in charge of salvation we have nothing left to speak about.
Have a nice Day (of Redemption)
The Saviour is a person and salvation is the result of His working.
You get the freedom to choose to follow, you don't get the power to save yourself. If God has saved you, you are saved. He doesn't save unbelievers and He knows exactly who they are.
I'm beginning to think you don't think we are saved until the day of the Resurrection.
You get the freedom to choose to follow, you don't get the power to save yourself. If God has saved you, you are saved. He doesn't save unbelievers and He knows exactly who they are.
I'm beginning to think you don't think we are saved until the day of the Resurrection.