Pentecostal view of the holy spirit.

That actually makes a lot of sense; but you could never get anyone to try it. They'd have a thousand reasons why it wouldn't work: You can't put God to the test; if they did it and it didn't work it's because the Holy Spirit doesn't operate on demand; the speaker or the interpreter is fake, not tongues; etc., etc., etc. That's the beauty of the angelic language, nothing to prove and no one can disprove.

At my age I have heard literally millions of prayers from all sorts of people from preachers to pew warmers and there's always a portion in every prayer where the person stops knowing what to say. Or they pray short prayers because they can't remain focused. And then people ask, why hasn't God answered our prayers? Because you never asked God for what you actually needed.

But to those people who have everything they need from God we see why.

13 These things we also speak—not in words taught by human wisdom but in words taught by the Ruach, explaining the spiritual to the spiritual.

26 In the same way, the Ruach helps in our weakness. For we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Ruach Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.


I say to those who reject tongues let them remain blinded and still in need. For it's by ignorance and pride they suffer as they do.

Jeremiah 23:32
32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the LORD. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the LORD.

To all those who claim to prophesy in the name of the Holy Spirit, beware!
To all those who claim visions, tongues, interpretations or knowledge given to them by the Holy Spirit, beware!


Ezekiel 13:7-9
7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The Lord declares,” though I have not spoken?
8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign Lord. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.

To all those who declare to speak in languages given to them by the Lord, beware!
To all those who proclaim divine interpretations in the name of the Lord, beware!

Jude 8
8 Yet in the same way these dreamers also defile the flesh, reject authority, and slander the glorious ones.

To all those caught up in the false teachings of the Pentecostal movement, beware!
To all those who reject faith apart from sight, who seek the flesh of physical experience, beware!

John 20:27-31
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” 30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

To all those who proclaim physical experiences over faith in the unseen, beware!
To all those who feel blessed because of their proclaimed physical gifts, beware!

Hi.. first at 63 and all the different Churches I have been in and part of praise GOD.. "tongues proves your really saved" was not there. Sure that are some that believe that yet since is not written we don't play with that thought. Now when Jesus walked this earth for 40 days were the 11, 120+ (women also) all saved? So what part of the holy spirit did they have? Did not Christ tell them unless I go the holy Spirit will not come? So Christ told them to wait for the promise.... what did Christ pray ask of the Father? So what fell was not on just 11 but everyone in that room. I am reminded of Carman a song about the upper room haha how one of 11 was asking .. I think "Peter did you leave the window open?" Any way

I remember watching this man of GOD bless his heart known but was saying what happened to them does not happen any more. Yet asking those if they have received the holy spirit since they believed is exactly what happened to me. A hear I am.. and then there are hundreds of millions that this also happened to them. Bible study .. I was saved the day before.. asked if I wanted the holy Spirit no clue what they were really saying but it was written luke 11 13. I said yes.. he prayed a very short prayer only read what the bible said and said nothing more. After he prayed said "that's it you got it" Got what? No one said a word I got up and the moment I sat down tongues just came out. Now was it as in my life any different? HOLY JESUS PRAISE GOD GLORY GLORY GLORY TO JESUS. YES like day and night. Its like I always had this drip but now.. ooh its a flood! Its exactly what He said.. you shall receive power after..

Now some will not believe.. praise GOD they know Christ and that is what matters.. that is why they will live for ever. Me? I read John 3:16-17 and believed GOD there so why would I doubt what GOD said in Luke 11 13? I don't care what some man said.. if GOD said it.. if He said ask.. I am going to ask.. Shall I post pages and pages and pages no lie about all He has done just in my life because I only believed HIM and as they said in that bible study I still hold to this day "if we say anything that is not in the bible do not believe us"

For me when I stand on His word He always every time keeps it.. ask Him if I am not telling the truth word for word. But.. its about do you know JESUS Christ who came in the flesh.. did you repent.. and confess and believe in your hear.. GOD raised Him from the dead.. He is what matters

Is the idea that there are space aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster taught in scripture? Scripture does teach that spiritual gifts like prophecy and the working of miracles are given to members of the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. The New Testament commands a church to allow prophets to speak and says 'For ye may all prophesy one by one.' In the same epistle, it says, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

I have also witnessed numerous prophecies. This weekend at church, someone told me what my spiritual gift was... among other things, by revelatory means. I'd never met this person before. I've had this happen numerous times, people who don't know me getting a revelation that I was a teacher. That also relates to my vocation as well as my spiritual gift. That's a very small example, but it happens from time to time, encouragement in that area through someone's prophetic word or whatever type of revelation it is. There is also when you go one place and someone prophesies something, and you go somewhere else and someone else prophesies the same thing.

Do you believe God answers specific prayers? That's supernatural. Is that like Big Foot to you? Have you ever experienced God doing something you could perceive.... answering very specific prayers could be an example of that.

That's a self defeating statement. No more, no less. Not to sound "mean", but it's like saying, "There is no truth". Is that statement true?

It's just a logical fallacy, so kind of pointless to say, again I'm not trying to be mean, but just kind of felt led to point it out.

For some Christians yes.
Space aliens (Ezekiel's Wheel)
Bigfoot (Nephilim)
Loch Ness Monster (Leviathan)

Regardless, it is the blind acceptance of baseless claims that is at issue.

Agreed but your statement only assumes the prospect not the evidence of their continued existence. Can you not see this?

This is carnal thinking. A faith based on sight and physical experience . None of your claims "proves" your point.
What I personally "perceive" is moot. I have never seen anything that I can say is beyond the shadow of a doubt a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

My faith is beyond sight, beyond experience and beyond flesh. I have been a Christian since I was a teenager and believe even more today without the "experiences" that many here claim.

Many here have the faith of Thomas. A faith void of blessings.

What is the pronoun "that's" are you referring to?

You don't sound "mean" just confused.

P.S. It is not wise to use pronouns when referring to abstract concepts.

Here you go.


1 Corinthians 14:13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Any claim about anything has to be evaluated on it's merit. If a Christian claims God answered a very specific multi-part prayer that an atheist might reject out of hand, and it is in line with the principles taught in scripture, I would certainly accept that that __might__ be true. If applicable, I might consider other witnesses to the events of the fulfilled prayer. I would also consider the character of the person sharing this testimony with me.

If someone told me they preached to a group of 50 Muslims in Sudan and and 10 of them professed their faith that Jesus is the Messiah and that He rose from the dead, and were baptized... I suppose I could reject that testimony out of hand and imply the preacher who told me was lying. After all, Sudan is a tough place for the Gospel. But I also believe the power of God can work on the hearts of Sudanese people as on others. If there were witnesses and I were curious I might ask their perspective. I might consider the character of the preacher if I knew it.

If someone claimed to have received supernatural knowledge, prophecy, or seen a healing based on the laying on of hands, in line with the teaching of scripture, I would evaluate it the way I evaluate other things. I might want to know if this individuals prophecies came to pass (if they were about the future) if there were witnesses. If I had evidence, I might consider the individual's character.

But I am not going to act like an obnoxious idiot and call all these people liars and just say these are 'baseless claims' parroting the rhetoric left wing media pundit . I'm not going to say there is no evidence when the Bible teaches us that the testimony of witnesses is a form of evidence, and witnesses are telling me these things.

That comes off as... well not wise... consider the set of statements considering the context of our discussion. If you are asserting that God doesn't do miracles, etc. now, and then say the teaching of scripture assumes the prospect of their continued existence, you changed your stance. You shouldn't follow that up with 'Can you not see this?'

Of course, every claim needs to be evaluated on it's own merit. The issue is that the scriptures teach that the Spirit gives these gifts as He will. Rejecting the claims of such supernatural phenomenon because they someone makes a claim is inconsistent with scripture.


Your thinking is carnal here, if it reaches that level. It certainly isn't well thought out. You should accuse people with no evidence. Jesus walked on water. Peter walked on water. The other disciples saw it. Do you think Jesus' or Peter had 'faith base on sight and physical experience because they performed these miracles? Your reasoning is backwards and skewed here. Peter did not have faith based on sight and physical experience because he did miracles or believed in them or that he could do them (as evidenced by the fact that he asked Jesus to bid him to come to Him on the water, then walked on water). It was when Peter doubted, looking at the winds and wave (sight, relying on physical experience) that he could NOT do miracles.

I believe God can do miracles and gift people with spiritual gifts like the scriptures teach. I do not refuse to believe in God unless He does a miracle, nor do I desire to see miracles so I can believe God exists. Sometimes I wonder if some people who judge those who believe God did miracles with this bizarre line of reasoning are projecting their own past struggles with doubt on people? I suppose their could be people out there who want to see miracles to prove God exists who go chasing miracles, but it would be foolish to assert that everyone who believes God does miracles and gifts saints with gifts are so motivated. Why? Because the apostles believed God gifted people to do miracles. The New Testament teaches it. Believing New Testament teachings does not put one in the position of having a faith based on sight.

Being able to perceive is not a moot point. Barnabas could see the grace of God among the saints in Antioch. Paul could see that a lame man had the faith to be healed. There is a prophecy in Isaiah that says seeing they shall see and shall not perceive.

Is this your comment about specific prayers being answered? Have you never prayed for something so specific and received an answer, that if you told a hardened atheist about it, they might call you a liar? I sure have. Have you never been in need and prayed for a specific amount of money and someone gave it to you? Or you prayed for something specific about ministry or family issues and it was answered in great detail? I have. That doesn't mean I only believe if the prayer is answered. I have certainly experienced faith that God would answer detailed prayers before those prayers were answered, but I could still had that sense of awe and wonder when they were answered.

If you haven't experienced specific answered prayer, maybe you should pray more, pray more specifically, pray more fervently, not just pray to consume the answer upon your lusts, or pray according to God's will. If you have this idea that God responding to what you pray is 'flesh' or 'walking by sight', you need to study the scriptures and correct your flawed thinking. Also, meditating on the word of God, particularly passages about God answering prayer may be good for you. In some people, I suspect rejecting Biblical teaching on spiritual gifts may go hand-in-hand in not believing God much to answer prayers, and so they just occasionally pray the Lord's prayer, pray for their food, and pray stuff like, "Bless my mom and my dog" or whatever.

It might also encourage you to read some of the testimonies of George Muller, who wasn't a part of the Pentecostal movement, back in the 1800's, and feed about his answered prayers, including praying and receiving resources to feed and provide for many, many orphans when he was committed not to ask people for help for that ministry.

If you have faith like that, there should be some evidence and manifestation of it in your daily life and what goes on around you.

God did a great miracle. Thomas heard about it and didn't believe it. He saw evidence of it and then believed. Jesus spoke a blessing on those who had not seen, and yet had believed.

That definitely does not fit with the argument you are trying to make here.

Yes.... @Bob-Carabbio showed me that one... thanks.

Here are the verses:


John 20:24-29
New International Version
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord! ”But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So what is the problem. You just restated my point.

Faith because you have seen. No blessing.

Faith without seeing. Blessings.

What's going on with you?

I think you are missing the fact that other people witnessed a miracle and Thomas dismissed it out of hand and didn't believe it. Who is the one doing that in this conversation?

Believing and then seeing miracles is not the same as 'faith because you have seen.'

Peter had faith and he walked on water. He doubted and he sank.

Give me some examples of evidence and manifestations that would "prove" my faith?

Here is the verse:

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Did I really have to point this out???

Peter's faith was one based on sight. He projected what he physically saw in Jesus onto his hope for the coming Messiah.

Peter was not blessed because he believed without seeing, he was blessed because he understood that the person he knew was performing the miracles was the Son of God. (Matthew 16:13-20)

If you believe God for something and you do not see it, that doesn't mean you will never see it. You can believe the New Testament teachings that Jesus will return. That doesn't mean you will never see it.

Peter believed that he could walk on water, and he did it. When he did it, he could see that he was walking on water. But then he started doubting as the saw the wind and the waves and he sunk.

If you pray and believe God that you have received what you asked for, then you may eventually see it. Let's imagine you believe God wants you to go on a missions trip to Africa. You pray and ask God to provide, and then He does. You can see the money in your hand or the bank balance in your account. You can see the ticket in your hand, and the cars getting smaller as the airplane takes off.

What are you referring to? When He tried to talk Jesus out of the crucifixion? Peter believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

If Peter believed that Jesus rose before He saw Him, then why would he have received that blessing Jesus told Thomas about in John 20? You also have no basis for saying that Thomas received no blessing. He just missed out on that one blessing we know about.[/quote][/QUOTE]

Lifestyle can be evidence of faith. Answered prayer can be evidence of prayers made in faith.

Paul could see that a man had faith, and Barnabas could see grace.

Lifestyle can be evidence of faith???
Answered prayer can be evidence of faith???

Are the lifestyles of the Mormons evidence of faith? Yes or No.
Are the claims of answered prayers of Jehovah Witnesses evidence of faith? Yes or No.