Loss of salvation???

I dont think any of us are saying God abandons his children. However, I do think we are saying children can abandon God. I think the story of the Prodigal son suggests as much. Moreover, with regards to Christians falling into legalism, James says,

It seems clear to me that James is saying that if Christians begin judging their brothers in a legalistic manner (the context shows Christians were judging brothers based on their wealth) then they are in danger of being judged by the Law since they are acting in a legalistic way and not showing mercy. Why would James warn Christians about the dangers of legalism if Christians are in no danger from being legalistic in their gatherings towards one another?

The point I made seemed to go over your head. I quote:

Verse 12 is saying we are debtors (for our life) to the Spirit, if you are not in the Spirit, you are not God's and will die. Because the flesh did not gives us life we cannot expect to live by it and live the Spirit filled life.

Anyone can say "I believe", that is not what saves you. It is the word at work in you that saves and gives you faith. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17) and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom.1:16). God does not give just any "ole Tom, Dick or Harry" to His Son. Living the Christian life confirms you are saved, it is not what saves you from death. It is impossible to walk according to the Spirit unless you are saved and by walking according to God's plan you overcome the 3 enemies every man of God must face in this life, the Devil, the World and himself. This is why Christ calls you to follow so you might be an overcomer and have life in all it's abundance. (Jn.10:10) God wants the highest and best for all of us.

You may have to learn some humility.

You stated the following.

Because some of us look at the whole counsel of God

You must be kidding yourself.

The whole counsel of God?

We all struggle with the basics.

This forum in the whole merely just scratches the surface of the revelation
of the Christ.

The whole counsel of God, you say.

How about you boast in Christ first and foremost not theology.

Tell me why some folk cannot understand a simple letter?

You both keep making salvation a work. It is a gift. Learning to walk in obedience to the truth is what affirms and works out in your life the salvation you have been freely given. You both keep turning God into a two faced giver who takes His gift back the moment you squander it.

You constantly stumble in your understanding.

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you!

James 4:8
Come close to God and He will come close to you. Cleanse your hands,
you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Seems to be the reverse of what your saying.

Correct me if I am wrong.

A person can become a Christian for a while then live the rest
of their life in the flesh. Yet they are still saved because God
never let's them go?

And you may have to stop with your hypocrisy as once again you are making it personal.

If you're still struggling with the basics you can't move on to maturity.

Heb.6:1-3
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could give some thought to what I said.

Do you know what that can look like? Do you assume it can only be one who denies Christ and does nothing but live an immoral life?

Only according to your understanding.

I did think about what you said.

That is what triggered my post.

The whole counsel of God

I still don't believe that someone could say such a thing.

Not even Paul understood the full counsel of God, he called it a mystery.

I am considering what you said except for the doctrine of OSAS.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into
the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and
you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger,
and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did
not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty,
or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them,
‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for
Me, either.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus is not talking about works of straw here.

Jesus is telling us that there are ramifications for how we live our Christian life.

No so.

I have known many Christians who attend church but never do anything
else. Lukewarm Christians, they never seem to grow. I don't think they
really read the scripture or call on the name of Jesus very often.

A Christian life free from persecution, a no cost walk with Jesus.

For a long time I pondered this verse.

Revelation 3:16
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Then I guess you didn't read what I said close enough because I didn't say I understood the full counsel of God , I said I look at it and compare verses with verses I don't just pick out the ones that suit me.

Not once have you given an explanation of how one can extricate themself from the hand of God or how one can remove the indwelling Holy Spirit who is our guarantee until the day of redemption. You think you're stronger than God? God is faithful even when we are not.

How we live as Christians can only be done by saved people. You seem to keep insisting that the unsaved can potentially live as Christians. Can't happen.

The above people are not saved and never were saved which is why they were put on the left side. Do you really think the word will call those who have been given the righteousness of Christ, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, those who have been sealed by God and adopted as His children "accursed".

I don't think you have the slightest idea what has happened to us as believers. You seem to be under the impression we are in control of our own salvation and we can throw it away whenever it suits us.

So a good tree brings forth a mix of bad fruit and good fruit and as the tree matures it bears a higher percentage of good fruit and a lower percentage of bad fruit?


No, it is not true that the flesh becomes less and less sinful over time as it is trained to be more and more like Jesus. Nothing good comes from the flesh (Ro 7:18). That's why we have no confidence in it (Phil 3:3). And the new man, which was "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), is truly righteous and truly holy and does not become "better" over time.

The truth of the matter is that our marriage to Christ (and our resulting oneness with Him) is the tree that bears good fruit to God (Ro 7:4). And if we want to enjoy the good fruits of our relationship with Him, then we must live as He leads (Ga 5:16). Otherwise, the bad tree will produce the bad fruits (Ga 5:19-21).

So, please know that being an effective fruit inspector involves more than identifying people's sins. It also requires knowledge about the trees from which the fruits flow and the means by which the good fruit is produced and the bad fruit is not. I could say, "This is not difficult to understand if you know Paul's letters well", but that would be rude.

And if that is to mean He will spit them right into the lake of fire then He lied when He said He will never cast us aside. You can't have it both ways. He either never lets us go or being spit out of His mouth does not mean what you are trying to make it mean.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

I wonder, did you ever take the time to talk to the sort you mentioned to ensure they understood the Gospel and were saved? Or did you just assume they were saved because they went to Church and knew the hymns?

When a person is burdend down by the requiremets of the law, they tend to be unhappy with people who are not. So are you sure you are not entangled in that yoke of bondage?

I assure you it’s not “going over my head.” I’m happy to have a biblical discussion with you, but if you keep resorting to strawman arguments and insults then I will bow out. It’s not worth being contentious.

Anyway, the reason I quoted verse 12 is because it specifically states that the believer “will die” if they walk according to the flesh. I think, given the context, this is not talking about physical life since the entire chapter is about contrasting the ”law of the Spirit of life” from the “law of sin and death.”

Also, regarding your John 11 citation, Jesus says that whoever πιστεύω in me, will never die. This word is a present active participle. Which mean it is an ongoing action. In English, participles are often words that end in ”ing.” So, we could translate it as, “and anyone who lives and “is believing” in me will never die.” This word for faith is not a momentary acceptance but an ongoing, active and continual trust. So, yes, Jesus teaches that those who are believing will never die. I accept this. That is NOT what Paul is saying in Romans 8. He is saying that those who do not live by faith but live according to the flesh will die. If we live by faith and Spirit we live. If we live according to the flesh we die. This is how we become Christian and it does not stop after we are Christian. We live if we “abide“ in Christ. But anyone who is detached from Christ, withers and dies (cf. John 15).

Again, i think your fundamental issue is your claim that God is the one who gives faith and God is the one who selects who will believe and who will not. I dont see this taught anywhere in the Bible. Faith is OUR response to the Word. That is why God holds us accountable when we refuse to believe the truth. This is why Jesus said,

Notice the contrast here. The PERSON believes and is not condemned or does not believe and is already condemned. It is not God that determines belief. It is the person who either chooses to come into the light and have their deeds exposed or chooses to love darkness instead. We are responsible for believing and held accountable if we reject God’s message of salvation. God wants all to be saved. This idea that God has chosen to condemn most of the world by not granting them faith is wholly unbiblical imo. There isnt a solitary Scripture that teaches it. Rather, the panoply of Scripture indicates that God loves “the world,” “wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth,” and is a God whose heaven “rejoices more over one sinner that repents than 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.”

Why wouldn’t God just make heaven rejoice continually by causing every sinner to repent by imparting them with saving faith if this is how salvation happens?

Correct, Under Grace Never 'let's them go' (God's Operation!) - see

a) 'fornicating member of the One Body Of Christ'

and:

b) Body of Christ Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)
----------------------
Bible 'mix-ups' are corrected by 2 Timothy 2:15 AV - ie:

loss of salvation or Eternal Security?

Amen.

A bit touchy aren't we? I made no insult. Your response made no sense to me in relation to what I was saying and I made an observation. I said, it seemed you didn't understand. Stop taking everything so personal.

It does not say the believer will die spiritually which is what must occur for the believer to lose their salvation. Paul makes a clear distinction between those in the flesh (unsaved) and those in the Spirit (saved). What makes the difference is not, how they live their lives but whether the Spirit of God has made His home in them which, is what happens to all believers. You cannot belong to God unless the Spirit has made His home in you.

Further I have already explained (although maybe it wasn't to you but the other poster) how one can die the "sin unto death". Paul is speaking of physical death, not spiritual death in Rom.8:12. How do we know that? Because Jesus said once you are made alive, you cannot die. It's obvious He is not speaking of physical death because Peter, Paul and all the rest of the Apostles died. Verse 25 pertains to physical life, verse 26 to spiritual life.

John 11:25&26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

But, having been saved and indwelt by the Spirit, if you continue to walk as if you are still in the flesh (according to self-serving means), you will be disciplined even to the point of God removing you from this world.

1John 5:16&17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

And again, if you think what I am saying is God chooses who believes and who doesn't? You have not understood what I have said. As much as you keep thinking you do, the truth is you don't.

Believing is our response to the word, it comes from our will. Faith comes from the word, not our will. (Rom.10:17)

Faith is supernatural in origin which, is why it is absolute confidence and assurance. (Heb.11:1)

The power of faith is in the word which is why the Gospel saves. This is why the legalists never mature because they are relying on what they're believing and not resting on God's word. There is no power in our will except the power of revealing ourselves for who and what we are. You can believe the sun will rise tomorrow till the cows come home, you can believe it with "all your heart", but your believing is not making the sun to rise. (Matt.5:45)

Because it doesn't happen that way.

Let’s just deal with the texts, and each others statements rather than making insinuations about if someone doesn’t understand the Bible, shall we? You may not like my interpretations, but you can disagree and show why without implying that I dont know what the Bible says. I assure you I have studied the Bible for many many years and I am very familiar with every book in the Bible and what they teach. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretations, but I certainly know the Bible.

You said…
The entire context of this passage is about salvation. Paul begins chapter 8 this way…

Paul begins discussing how Christians are no longer under condemnation because of the law of the Spirit of life. Thus, all of the contrasts about following the Spirit which leads to life vs. following the flesh and the Law which leads to spiritual death. God does make His spiritual home in believers, yet Christians can still follow after the flesh rather than the Spirit if they so choose. This is why we are “debtors” to the Spirit and should follow after the Spirit rather than the flesh which leads to death. So it seems clear that following after the flesh = following the law of sin and death.

I think your next statement contradicts itself…

Paul says, “If you live according to the flesh, you will die…”. So if Paul is speaking physical death, then you are arguing that Paul and the other Apostles were living according to the flesh since they all died physically. This is NOT what Paul is referring to. He is referring to spiritual death because all of these men lived according to the Spirit yet they died physically. They did not die spiritually because they did not live according to the flesh as stated in this passage. His warning is clearly that if someone lives according to the flesh they will die spiritually because they are not acting in faith and are living under the law of sin and death.

I already responded to the John 11 passage. The word here is a present active participle. It is referring to and ongoing, active faith. It is not referring to a moment of faith that someone ceases to maintain. So, I agree with you that someone who has an active, ongoing faith will never die.

As for the 1 John 5 passage, your interpretation makes no sense…

So, according to your interpretation, if you see a brother sinning in such a manner that God desires to remove them from the world, then we shouldn’t pray for them. Could you expound upon which sins we should not pray about? Drunkenness? Anger? Profanity? Lust? Which sin, exactly, is John saying that is so egregious that God will want to kill the believer physically and we, as brothers, should refrain from praying for them? I think the obvious answer is, “none of these.”

The context of 1 John is referring to unbelief and propagating false teachings about Jesus.

He goes on to say…

Thus, the “sin that leads to death” is the sin of false teaching about Jesus (namely that he did not come in the flesh) and is the sin of those who do not believe the testimony God has borne concerning his Son and therefore “does not have the Son of God” and therefore does not have life (death).