Total Depravity

Didn't we have this conversation 2 years ago.

If faith is the condition that God sets why would He do so, if we cannot be persuaded of the TRUTH of the Gospel and have the moral capacity to do so.

God doesn't save us because faith somehow earns it. And faith itself doesn't save us. God saves us, as a gift, because we met His gracious condition, faith.

John Calvin stated "faith is the out stretched hand" I do agree he captured it perfectly.

Yes. I remember. You believe your intellect and ability to understand the Scriptures and be “persuaded” is what saves you.

No condescension intended, but that’s really sad.

Yes. I remember. You believe your intellect and ability to understand the Scriptures and be “persuaded” is what saves you.

No condescension intended, but that’s really sad.

In the context of the grammar of the text, faith cannot be what the gift is. The Greek word for "this" is touto, which is grammatically neuter. So faith cannot be the referent of touto. Salvation is feminine

If faith is not a gift from God, then how did we get it?

Yes it does come down to the structure of this verse that like I have mentioned even John Calvin who studied Greek had to admit faith was not the gift in this verse but that the gift is salvation.

“τοῦτο” [that] is a neuter demonstrative pronoun.

But “πίστεως” [faith] is feminine. This is vital because when Greek demonstratives modify nouns, they will agree with the noun in gender, …number and case. And so “τοῦτο” [that] is not in reference to the “πίστεως” [faith] plain and simple.

“πίστεως” [faith] may be the closest to “τοῦτο” [that] but that is not how you determine its reference in a Greek sentence. The endings of the words that are how you do that.

The gift cannot be “χάριτί” [grace] as that is feminine also. It is gracious for God to give a gift so that grace is the basis of the gift, but the grace itself is not the gift. A person may give you a gift out of their generosity, but they do not give you the gift of generosity.

And while “σῴζω” [saved] is a verb, “τοῦτο” applies to the whole thought Paul was expressing about salvation, with the noun being elliptical. So it would read, “For by grace through faith are ye saved, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.”
(from my notes).

If faith is not a gift from God, then how did we get it?

you may need to skip Romans 9

Romans Nine has been de- Calvinized by many writers, by many times over and with proper exegesis and written in the broader context of the letters. And very well done.

But once someone adopts a lens that is all they can see, I have the benefit have dropping that lens 10 years ago, in terms of spiritual growth best thing that ever happened.

It is a gift from God. We were born with it. But He gave it to us. But it is not the gift referred to in the verse "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God."

If you are referring to judicial hardening that does mean people are born judicially hardened.
Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

If you are referring to judicial hardening that does mean people are born judicially hardened.
Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

many writers write many wrong things. that's your own argument; it is a logical fallacy.

one thing we do know is true is that God hardens whom He will, and has mercy on whom He will, and that it is vain to think to judge Him.

“Because you have little faith,” he said. “I assure you that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, ‘Go from here to there,’ and it will go. There will be nothing that you can’t do.”
Matthew 17:20

It does not state the gift of faith.

Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

this does not explain how that the example in Romans 9:10-13 is Jacob and Esau before they were even born.

they said to Him,
Lord, increase our faith!

And He did... saving faith is then strengthened by God.

when you read this with no presupposition, what does it say to you?
i never even heard of Calvin before i came to this forum, and i never heard anything but people who actually disagree with ((what i later learned)) is actually hyper-calvinism, not the orthodoxy that was put down on paper by Augustine which Calvin later took up and voiced during the reformation.