Total Depravity

Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.

This isn't what total depravity is about. But we are born not having sinned, with a propensity toward sin, and under condemnation because Adam's sin has been credited to our account.

Everyone and their fancy words.

Total depravity is when you fail again after trying hard to give something up.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject His rule. Without God's intervention human beings cannot and will not ever come to God.

Kind of Captain Obvious

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as
wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or
wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from
a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things
that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does
recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and
judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie
behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds
are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point
where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source


Romans 3:10-12
The depraved state of man is not just presented in Calvinism, either, but also in Arminianism, and Molinism.

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. Of the natural man:
- all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
- there are NONE righteous
- a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
- all are under the control of the evil one
- we need to be rescued
- man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
- man is born dead in transgression and sin
- is held captive by a love for sin
- will not seek God
- he loves the darkness
- does not understand the things of God
- suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
- continues to willfully live in sin
- sinful lifestyle seems right to men
- rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
- hostile toward God in their mind
- does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

The first option is the correct option. We are born sinless. It seems the ancient Israelites also began to adopt this strange doctrine and so God sent Ezekiel to correct them. The whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 lays out all scenarios for the nature of man and how he is only guilty of his own sins. The entire chapter is pretty thorough in foolproofing all scenarios of whether a man be good or evil and his son be good or evil.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel+18&version=KJV

Mary’s husband Joseph is called a righteous man in Matthew 1:19.
Peter wrote of “righteous Lot” who “felt his righteous soul tormented” by the lawless deeds of those he lived among (2 Peter 2:7–8).
Luke called Joseph of Arimathea “a good and righteous man” (Luke 23:50).
And Jesus spoke of righteous men in Matthew 13:17, “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”

What is the difference in “unsaved” vs “total depravity”?

What do you call declaring His Son's sacrifice as worthy to save, and having actually sent Him, if it isn't God's intervention?

I believe this to be an act of divine intervention. It is through God’s grace that we are drawn to Him, for without such grace, none would seek Him out. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross is central to our faith; without it, we would undoubtedly be devoid of hope.

And exactly how does this intervention occur?

You can either believe the lie that God elects some for salvation and the majority for damnation, or you can believe the Gospel truth that because God desires the salvation of all humanity, Christ has commanded the Church to preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. Those who obey the Gospel are saved. Those who reject the Gospel are not.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel. Therefore God gives the Holy Spirit to the unsaved "elect", and then they believe. You will not find this nonsense in Scripture. What you will find in Scripture is this:

1, First comes the preaching of the true Gospel.
2. Then comes the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.
3, Then comes either repentance and faith, or no repentance and faith.
4. Then comes justification by grace through faith.
5. Then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel..
6. Then comes the supernatural New Birth, and all that follows in the saving plan of God.
7. Then comes sanctification by the power of the indwelling Spirit.
8. Then comes glorification at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Scripture rightly divided!
Thank you!

How about this:

Luke 1:5-6
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Not only were they considered righteous they walked in all the commandments of the Lord BLAMELESSLY!

Let me make one thing clear. When I talk about total depravity I do not mean it the way calvanist believe it.
I hold the belief that, unaided, humans cannot naturally come to God. Divine intervention is necessary for anyone to seek a relationship with God. However, I do not subscribe to the notion that regeneration must precede this seeking process. Instead, I understand that God actively influences the human heart, drawing individuals toward salvation. Ultimately, each person has the freedom to accept or reject this transformative work within their hearts. God desires all men to be saved not just a few. I am sorry for the confusion. I am not a Calvanist.

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I agree that we are unable without God.
But with the provision made we can follow Jesus. By faith we can be set free.

But are we guilty of sin when we are born? No if we have not chosen to disobey God, we are not guilty. But we do, so all have sinned.

But are we guilty of sin when we are born? No if we have not chosen to disobey God, we are not guilty. But we do, so all have sinned.[/QUOTE]

I believe that we are not guilty of sin at birth, as a newborn is incapable of sinning. However, due to the Fall, all humanity stands guilty before God. Adam and Eve were initially in a perfect, innocent, and sinless state. They walked in the garden without realizing their nakedness. But after eating from the forbidden tree, which God had commanded them not to eat from, they lost their innocence. Before this act, they were spiritually alive and connected to God. Afterward, they became spiritually dead and severed from God
Adam and Eve were created with a perfect nature, but their disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree resulted in a fundamental change. This act introduced a flawed nature into humanity, often referred to as the 'sinful nature.' Consequently, every human born thereafter inherited this inherent flaw, a spiritual separation from God, regardless of their innocence at birth.

This separation, as described in the Bible, remained unbridged until the arrival of Jesus, referred to as the Son of Man, was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, and thus, was not subject to the inherited sinful nature passed down from Adam. As the second Adam, Christ came from heaven and lived a sinless life, which qualified Him as the only perfect sacrifice. His purpose was to restore the broken relationship between humanity and God. Through faith in Jesus, individuals can experience a spiritual rebirth, becoming 'born again,' and reestablish their connection with God.
It’s a subject of much debate, but there’s a perspective within Christianity which I hold to is that, due to Christ’s redemptive work, all infants are encompassed by His grace. This belief posits that if an infant were to pass away, they would be received into heaven, covered by the sacrificial act of Jesus. This view emphasizes the all-encompassing nature of Christ’s atonement as an automatic provision of grace, particularly for those unable to make a conscious decision for Christ.

Yes, the title makes things a bit confusing
My aim was to look at the belief,, TOTAL D.. and see if the bible supports what calvin thought or not.

You have made it clear you are not in support of Calvinism.

But you do believe in original sin. I think..

They are much debated subjects...

I believe we are unable to do good, because we have inherited a sinful nature, but I do not believe we are born guilty of sin. No choice to obey or disobey has been made by us at birth.

The nature of Christ is another subject. This is ever harder to understand.

How about you start with the definition of "total depravity" so there is no confusion.

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.