Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

We are in the "millennium". Which, evidently, you don't believe either. Anyhow...you haven't provided any biblical proof that God is going to give adult brains to infants, babies, toddlers, etc. Or that he is going to heal all the emotionally and mentally ill, etc.

What amazes me about "christians" is that they represent God's Holy Word . . . and they don't even read it. "christians" don't know their own Book.

Cameron, I am able to determine that you have put in many thousands of hours of study and perhaps the cataloging of Scripture. Is this true? What tools, or methods have you used and perhaps implemented to help you "see" ideas and principles in Scripture?

Ecclesiastes 12:9 NLT - "Keep this in mind: The Teacher was considered wise, and he taught the people everything he knew. He listened carefully to many proverbs, studying and classifying them."

Cameron, I am able to determine that you have put in many thousands of hours of study and perhaps the cataloging of Scripture. Is this true? What tools, or methods have you used and perhaps implemented to help you "see" ideas and principles in Scripture?

Ecclesiastes 12:9 NLT - "Keep this in mind: The Teacher was considered wise, and he taught the people everything he knew. He listened carefully to many proverbs, studying and classifying them."

sadly enough this is the truth., they live by doctrine of men, for somebody to say they are a “christian” but haven’t read the scripture cover to cover is ludicrous but if you actually find one that does study cover to cover, they don’t know history and that’s the second worst transgression of todays believers.

i just hope that by refuting these devilish doctrines that they heard in church that it will challenge them to read the book and research history for themselves.

God knowing in his omniscience that many would not believe, is not to be construed to mean he caused them not to believe.

In John 17, Jesus was specifically praying for his disciples given him....

Excluding others in prayer does not mean he did not die for the sins of the whole world.

It confounds some as to why Jesus died for those who would not believe in Him.

If Jesus did not die for the unbeliever's sins?
Satan as their defense attorney would appeal their case for all eternity, claiming that God made it impossible for them to believe.

So, God stopped Satan before he could make a case!

@MikeIsraelite72

Well said. And by the way, I am so glad to see you posting, when initially you stated that you were hesitant. It is good to have your support, something which "said christians" are typically unwilling to do. Glad you are here!

Your words are kind. Thank you. I don't really have a systematic way of studying. I've been saved for 31 years and during that time I have listened to tens of thousands of sermons. I have also been blessed to have opportunity for long periods of meditation. It is only recently that I have tried to handle scripture organizationally. That is, because there is purposeful organization in the way scripture is written, part of the intention and meaning is found in its structure.
I hardly feel like I have a handle on all of this, and I've never considered myself particularly organized. I see many people on this site who I believe are very intelligent and some truly gifted with incredibly analytical minds. I wish I had a mind like that. But I have sat under pastor for nearly 30 years who is an incredible teacher.
I wish I could outline a plan for you but I don't have one, but I can share with you something someone shared with me a long time ago that has been extremely helpful to me. Many people practice spiritual disciplines like prayer, Bible study, meditation, fasting, and fellowship. And many believe the benefit is in the practice. And, to be sure, there is some value in the practice. But the real benefit of spiritual disciplines are that they are the practices wherein God has established to actually meet with His people. For example, when we pray, we are taught to enter our closet. And there, our Father who is in secret, meets us there. We are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We are also taught that when 2 or more gather, Jesus will be in the midst.
I tell you this because it is in God's presence that we are changed from glory to glory. And while I believe many people practice spiritual disciplines, I don't know that they know much of what it truly is to be in the presence of God. But no one has to tell me when someone has been in the presence of God. I know because they are like Christ.
Hope this is at least a little bit helpful.

But . . . . . . . . you just taught the world that God doesn't prevent people from believing. That is unquestionably false. Why would you do that?

So, let me get this straight: The Omniscient God knew everyone from eternity who would never believe on His Son, yet at the same time he Sent his Son to die for them anyway? TO WHAT LOGICAL END, MAY I ASK?

Moreover what does God's Omniscience, i.e. foreknowledge, have to do with his Justice? Didn't he give believers and unbelievers alike "free will"?

Also, If God saved no human beings, would Satan represent the entire human race, claiming that God made it impossible for anyone in mankind to believe in Him through his Son? What case could he make? Logically speaking, since God is not morally obligated to save all, then how can he be morally culpable for choosing to save only many? Yet, this is what your premise implies. if God saves only "some", then somehow it's unfair of him if he doesn't save all? The only way God could ever be unfair is by NOT giving sinners what they rightly deserve! But there can never be an injustice with God for giving many sinners what they DON'T deserve, since His justice has been satisfied on their behalf in, by and through His Son. Your sense of justice is totally twisted. You start with a premise that clearly implies that somehow God is morally obligated to either save no one (such as he has passed on all the fallen angels) or to make salvation possible for all.

And don't you know what Jesus taught about a kingdom that is divided against itself!? Satan hates God and hates all mankind. Satan desires only one thing: The utter destruction of all God's image-bearers. So, logically, why would Satan take up the defense on non-believers, that he so earnestly and zealously desires to be in hell with him for all eternity? Your premise is entirely absurd, sir. Satan, the hater of all mankind is going to take up the defense of those he hates!? To what end: So that fewer people he so vehemently hates get to share his pain and torment in the eternal fires of hell?

And you're also absolutely right about what you said in your first sentence. God's omniscience should not be construed as him causing unbelief in the condemned. God's "omniscience" caused unbelievers to simply remain in their own devices -- in their, natural, fallen state. And there's nothing unjust in that, as explained above.

I was speaking about Christians who are already saved. Those who need to grow in understanding.

The Gospel should be super simple for anyone to understand. What are you now referring to?

I don't believe God is saving fewer people today. There may be fewer being saved where we are, but the kingdom of God is as the mustard seed. It starts small but grows to be the largest plant. The leaven begins in one part, but eventually spreads to the whole lump. The knowledge of the glory of the Lord will eventually cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. I believe this is done through the church.

They read it plenty... From too often times translations that are not exacting in its rendering.

Trouble is they are not taught it to understand it from the original languages with great accuracy in its meaning.
I am not referring to word studies and concordances. I speak of pastors who actually know the Greek and Hebrew
to teach from it....

We really need more pastors who can teach from the original languages and able to explain in terms we will relate to.

It would make a world of difference.

Believers get all tripped up because they see something as impossible for an omniscient God.

The key to God creating all men without knowing how they would believe is to be found in the state of mind Jesus became when He came to earth. He came not as God. But as a man....

That ability of the Son to make himself to be as a man holds the keys to the mystery as to why everyone and everything created had to be created through the Son. For the Son (as demonstrated by Jesus) was capable of stepping outside of his power of omniscience to make himself be as a man.

In other words? When Jesus was used of God to create all men? Jesus placing himself outside of omniscience, could mentally create all souls with only the desire that once they were created, all would want to love God. Plain and simple.

That is why all of use had to be created THROUGH him! In doing so, it avoided God's omniscience from jamming up the works, having to create some not to believe......

Worldwide Cameron, I think Islam is a fast growing religion.

Where as Christianity is not a growing religion in the majority of countries worldwide.

Christianity would be in decline (falling away) in the majority of the countries.

There was an era when Christianity almost filled the garden.

Alas, those days are passing rapidly now.

I mean, I am absolutely perplexed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

If your preferred translation says something other than what is offered above, I'd like to see it. To me, the above is at the HEART of the Gospel, Saving Plan of Christ and it is ultra simple to understand. God is the one who changes hearts, not each individual person. This is what the entire Bible is about.

There is a time for gentle approach. Usually found in a face to face bible studies.

There is also a time for something needing to be debated concerning the promotion of false doctrine.

The internet can easily remove us from intimate the face to face format and places us in a PUBLIC arena for debating.
Debating publicly can get us into a different realm of emphasis.......

What some are failing to see is that too many things said here are false and with a desire to promote it....
In that case? Here is what the Bible has to say about being "gentle" when that situation arise... .




We need balance when someone assumes all communication is to be gently done.
Those who wish to promote false doctrine will walk all over you if you mechanically take that tact.

In Christ... grace and peace

I don't have the time for games of avoidance. Best of luck.

Hah! Very interesting text. The NIV renders the above:

Eccl 12:9-10
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
NIV

This passage suggest at least two things: First, the "Teacher" seemed to have been quite to disposed to systematic study. He was likely methodical in procedure and planning. Secondly, along the same lines, he very likely divided the proverbs up according to topics. He might have actually written the first Topical Bible ever. And yet, we have several people on this thread who totally dismiss the value of such kinds of study! In fact, they, thinking themselves to be wise, mock and ridicule those of us who see value in the various disciplines of theology and in recognizing and being thankful for the good gifts that God has given to his Church, such as teachers!

Good catch on that passage! This is why I love the Wisdom Books so much!

Worldwide Cameron, I think Islam is a fast growing religion.

Where as Christianity is not a growing religion in the majority of countries worldwide.

Christianity would be in decline (falling away) in the majority of the countries.

There was an era when Christianity almost filled the garden.

Alas, those days are passing rapidly now.

Church attendance declining can simply be God purging the threshing floor.