Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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It is all over the Bible.

Otherwise one has to believe that God is only successful with some people and not others, wrong,
Or God only loves some and not others again, doubly WRONG!
Or God only pricks the ears of some not others, wrong again!!

People being able to be be persuaded, believe, accept or reject based on power of the Gospel message does not change the character of God.
These other systems do.
We read all over the Bible that God Loves, God is Merciful, God is Gracious.
We even read that mankind is God's Own Offspring.
Why would a Loving, Merciful, full of Grace God being killing His Own Children for Glory?
Sounds mentally illogic.

It's clear that God is Love and desires to be loved.
People who yield to God do so out of Love, not out of force.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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We read all over the Bible that God Loves, God is Merciful, God is Gracious.
We even read that mankind is God's Own Offspring.
Why would a Loving, Merciful, full of Grace God being killing His Own Children for Glory?
Sounds mentally illogic.

It's clear that God is Love and desires to be loved.
People who yield to God do so out of Love, not out of force.
Exactly

Another, key issue is how we are born.

We all are born with the natural ability to love and respond to love and the messages of love.

Their fallen man is so depraved, so dead, so incapacitated to act, even at birth, all he thinks about is sin, because he is a slave to sin.

This is pure Calvinism/Augustine, no way around it.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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According to Reformed John Piper, who I listen to a lot:

God's Will is done by Command:
The will of God” in the Bible is what we can call his “will of command.”

Which this falls under that category:
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


Herod
Pilate
Gentiles
People of Israel
ALL conspired against Jesus
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen


That is the same thing as was being COMMANDED to do it!

Because they had NO CHOICE but to do it!





I have been giving a REFORMED ANSWER and the REFORMED are opposing it...go figure!
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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"the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"

A will that is weaker than the flesh does not necessitate its nonexistence.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Sure, not rocket science that the natural man thinks the gospel message foolishness.
Continuation of the misrepresentation of 1Cor2:14.

Regarding some natural man Greeks:

30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter."
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
(Acts 17:30-34 NKJ)

This looks to me like a lesson about unregenerate men who hear the Gospel from one of God's sent proclaimers and the spoken Word of God doing what it has the power to do among the natural men:
  • Some Greek natural men were mocking (per Oxford Languages Dictionary: tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.)
    • The verb tense is telling us this was taking place like a video - IOW it was taking place continuously
  • Other natural men in essence said they wanted to hear more later.
    • This sounds like partial hearing and volition in action in Greek natural men
      • Your thoughts?
  • Some Greek natural men joined/united with God's sent Gospel proclaimer when they believed.
    • This sounds to me like God's Word - God's Gospel of His resurrected Son - meets with the hearing and volition of some natural men and accomplishes what God created it to do.
      • Your thoughts?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,003
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Continuation of the misrepresentation of 1Cor2:14.

Regarding some natural man Greeks:

30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter."
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
(Acts 17:30-34 NKJ)

This looks to me like a lesson about unregenerate men who hear the Gospel from one of God's sent proclaimers and the spoken Word of God doing what it has the power to do among the natural men:
  • Some Greek natural men were mocking (per Oxford Languages Dictionary: tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.)
    • The verb tense is telling us this was taking place like a video - IOW it was taking place continuously
  • Other natural men in essence said they wanted to hear more later.
    • This sounds like partial hearing and volition in action in Greek natural men
      • Your thoughts?
  • Some Greek natural men joined/united with God's sent Gospel proclaimer when they believed.
    • This sounds to me like God's Word - God's Gospel of His resurrected Son - meets with the hearing and volition of some natural men and accomplishes what God created it to do.
      • Your thoughts?
A real life example of the parable of the Sower.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
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According to Reformed John Piper, who I listen to a lot:

God's Will is done by Command:
The will of God” in the Bible is what we can call his “will of command.”

Which this falls under that category:
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


Herod
Pilate
Gentiles
People of Israel
ALL conspired against Jesus
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen


That is the same thing as was being COMMANDED to do it!

Because they had NO CHOICE but to do it! God’s will is being done by COMMAND? :rolleyes::unsure::sneaky:(n)





I have been giving a REFORMED ANSWER and the REFORMED are opposing it...go figure!
I‘m not really buying this at all. God's Will is done by Command? NOoooooo….
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
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Where in the Bible is this even hinted at? Man oh man; this is just wrong …. Give me scripture, please.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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714
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I‘m not really buying this at all.
The Bible says God's Power and Will were done in those people.
They had no choice but to do it.
Do you think it was possible they could have refused doing this?
If God made them do it how come it's not by Command?
Didn't God say Let there be light and we call it a Command?
When Jesus said to the storm, peace be still, was it not a Command?

We call let there be light and peace be still a Command but it was also God's Will to be done, correct?

The Great Commission: GO and make Disciples
Is that a Command and God's Will to be done?

I see everything God does by Command and His Will being done.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Where in the Bible is this even hinted at? Man oh man; this is just wrong …. Give me scripture, please.
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
The Bible says God's Power and Will were done in those people.
They had no choice but to do it.
Do you think it was possible they could have refused doing this?
If god made them do it how come it's not by Command?
Didn't God say Let there be light and we call it a Command?
When Jesus said to the storm, peace be still, was it not a Command?
Scripture, please. Context, please. Arrrggghhhh….
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Scripture, please. Context, please. Arrrggghhhh….
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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6,530
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Wouldn't it be interesting if we got to follow each of these natural soils to see how the 2nd-4th played out over time...
I think you can see it in real life. But God was wise not to give all the understanding through human capabilities and reasoning. He's interested in relationship. And if we could do everything without Him, why would anyone go? It's a wise person who walks humbly before the Lord in recognition of their constant need.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
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27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Yes, God will use evil men to carry out His overall plan, just as He used Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar. God is still on His throne. …but God will never command His Elect to do evil. He will only use the evil folks. When these people plot to do evil, it is time to leave it up to God. The Elect will never have to be forced (or commanded) to do God’s will—They willingly will do it.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
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Yes, God will use evil men to carry out His overall plan, just as He used Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar. God is still on His throne. …but God will never command His Elect to do evil. He will only use the evil folks. When these people plot to do evil, it is time to leave it up to God. The Elect will never have to be forced (or commanded) to do God’s will.
None of these men were saved is the entire point.
They were all evil and without God.