There will be no Rapture!!!
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Right. The dead in Christ will rise first. And we who are alive and remain will meet Him in the air with the others and the Lord.
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
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As with many wars, there can be many battles and campaigns to a single war.
It all began here...
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. "
Luke 10:18
That took place before Genesis 1:2.
Scientists try to explain it by saying a great asteroid hit earth..
Its the reason why they explain that dinosaurs went extinct.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/how-an-asteroid-caused-extinction-of-dinosaurs.html
That asteroid was "Lucifer" the light bringing angel being cast down to the prehistoric earth,.
Lucifer who was said to have heralded in the mornings (of the prehistoric world).
There is much to know once we can get by the petty arguments that bog so many down, preventing them from going forward.
In some forums you will see believers debating the same basic doctrines over and over again, for years!
Its an evil trap designed to prevent any substantial growth in knowledge of the Lord.
The mind of Christ = the full counsel of God's Word.
And, we have been given the Mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
In Christ .........
It all began here...
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. "
Luke 10:18
That took place before Genesis 1:2.
Scientists try to explain it by saying a great asteroid hit earth..
Its the reason why they explain that dinosaurs went extinct.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/how-an-asteroid-caused-extinction-of-dinosaurs.html
That asteroid was "Lucifer" the light bringing angel being cast down to the prehistoric earth,.
Lucifer who was said to have heralded in the mornings (of the prehistoric world).
Isaiah 14:12
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Apparently, there was a system of nations existing in the prehistoric created world.There is much to know once we can get by the petty arguments that bog so many down, preventing them from going forward.
In some forums you will see believers debating the same basic doctrines over and over again, for years!
Its an evil trap designed to prevent any substantial growth in knowledge of the Lord.
The mind of Christ = the full counsel of God's Word.
And, we have been given the Mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
In Christ .........
The downfall of Lucifer, as described in the parable spoken to the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is thought by many to have been a war whereby Satan was cast out of Heaven permanently. The nook of Job puts that one to rest.
Revelation 12 speaks of a war whereby Satan AND the fallen angels are cast out and confined to the earth. Was that a detail left out in Isaiah? That's a matter for debate, but debates of things not fully revealed most generally end up with people choosing sides on the basis of whatever they feel is the right stance. In other words, there are some today teaching that Satan was already cast out of Heaven in times past, confined to this earth, and so that was spoken of in Revelation has already transpired.
The problem with the "Satan is already cast out" theory is that the High priest Joshua has Satan at his right hand accusing him, as stated in Zechariah 3, so if there was a war back in the Genesis timeframe, how is it that Satan still has access in the writings of Zechariah and Job?
So, that would mean the Revelation war is yet still to our future.
MM
Revelation 12 speaks of a war whereby Satan AND the fallen angels are cast out and confined to the earth. Was that a detail left out in Isaiah? That's a matter for debate, but debates of things not fully revealed most generally end up with people choosing sides on the basis of whatever they feel is the right stance. In other words, there are some today teaching that Satan was already cast out of Heaven in times past, confined to this earth, and so that was spoken of in Revelation has already transpired.
The problem with the "Satan is already cast out" theory is that the High priest Joshua has Satan at his right hand accusing him, as stated in Zechariah 3, so if there was a war back in the Genesis timeframe, how is it that Satan still has access in the writings of Zechariah and Job?
So, that would mean the Revelation war is yet still to our future.
MM
This thread reminds me sort of of what Eve told Adam after she indulged herself with the forbidden fruit....
"Why DEBATE it?
Yes, I ate it!"
If the one debating does not have the needed knowledge to know what he is talking about?
He will be like a determined dog dashing around, chasing the bright spot moving on a floor being produced by a flashlight!
Its funny to watch......
But that dog will need a rest.
"Why DEBATE it?
Yes, I ate it!"
He will be like a determined dog dashing around, chasing the bright spot moving on a floor being produced by a flashlight!
Its funny to watch......
But that dog will need a rest.
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:5, 7-12, 17 KJV
“she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. “
“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:69
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
…And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:11-17 KJV
The centerpiece for revelation is the gospel the war happened when Christ was victorious in earth to redeem mankind satan then went to war against heaven after he failed to destroy Jesus and his work on earth but he lost again on that war as well and of course
the timing of the war in heaven follows the kingdom and the king when he went to heaven
Revelation 12:5, 7-12, 17 KJV
“she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. “
“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:69
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
…And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:11-17 KJV
The centerpiece for revelation is the gospel the war happened when Christ was victorious in earth to redeem mankind satan then went to war against heaven after he failed to destroy Jesus and his work on earth but he lost again on that war as well and of course
the timing of the war in heaven follows the kingdom and the king when he went to heaven
A number of scholars believe (and I tend to agree with them) that "the man child" in Rev12 is not just Jesus alone, but Jesus as "Head" WITH "His body" (us)--so a corporate entity... just as the "woman" is a corporate entity (not representing an individual "woman");
This would correspond with Micah 5:3's woman giving birth (not speaking of Jesus' Own Birth as in 5:2, but a FUTURE event), where v.3 says, "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant [same as in Rev12:17's "remnant of her seed"] of his brethren SHALL RETURN unto the children of Israel."
At no time during Jesus' First Advent (including after His resurrection) was He ever said to be "caught-up/SNATCHED [G726]"... (Scripture uses OTHER words, but not THIS "G726 [SNATCH]" word, to speak of His going up to Heaven [to God].)
"he was received up [G353]" -
ἀνελήφθη
anelēphthē
G353
ἀναλαμβάνω
analambanō
[not the same as "G726 - hērpasthē " used in Rev12:5; None of the words speaking of His ascension ever use THIS WORD]
____________
Additionally, Rev12:13 says, "the woman which had brought forth the male [G730 - arren / arsena]" (i.e. previous to the time-slot being spoken of in this chpt 12 context, which is the MID-trib time-slot).
See also the wording in Rev2:26-27a (i.e. it's not only Jesus who will "rule with a rod of iron," but others with Him)
This would correspond with Micah 5:3's woman giving birth (not speaking of Jesus' Own Birth as in 5:2, but a FUTURE event), where v.3 says, "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant [same as in Rev12:17's "remnant of her seed"] of his brethren SHALL RETURN unto the children of Israel."
At no time during Jesus' First Advent (including after His resurrection) was He ever said to be "caught-up/SNATCHED [G726]"... (Scripture uses OTHER words, but not THIS "G726 [SNATCH]" word, to speak of His going up to Heaven [to God].)
"he was received up [G353]" -
ἀνελήφθη
anelēphthē
G353
ἀναλαμβάνω
analambanō
[not the same as "G726 - hērpasthē " used in Rev12:5; None of the words speaking of His ascension ever use THIS WORD]
____________
Additionally, Rev12:13 says, "the woman which had brought forth the male [G730 - arren / arsena]" (i.e. previous to the time-slot being spoken of in this chpt 12 context, which is the MID-trib time-slot).
See also the wording in Rev2:26-27a (i.e. it's not only Jesus who will "rule with a rod of iron," but others with Him)
If the "2W" are "mass Believers"... when they are KILLED, these witnesses (according to your viewpoint) become "the DEAD in Christ," right?
So, are you saying that 100% of "Believers" (in this setting / context / Rev11 time-slot) will be "KILLED"? (Thus, be "DEAD").
IF you are saying this... that "100% of Believers" will be "KILLED" at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, then "who" are you saying are the "we which are ALIVE and remain" ones? if "100% of Believers" are "KILLED" (as the "witnesses").
Or are saying that the "2W" represent only "some" believers" (the ones who "witness" and give "testimony" and do all that the "2W" are shown doing), but the rest of the believers are, like, slackers who don't actually "do" what these are shown doing? Thus are not "KILLED" but still "ascend" up to Heaven with them (because they are believers too... just remain "ALIVE" and are not "KILLED" to become "the DEAD in Christ" like these "2W [groups]" are)??
So, I'm just wondering your viewpoint here... if the "2W [groups]" are "KILLED"... who (in your view) are the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." (are they "NOT witnesses" or what?)
So, are you saying that 100% of "Believers" (in this setting / context / Rev11 time-slot) will be "KILLED"? (Thus, be "DEAD").
IF you are saying this... that "100% of Believers" will be "KILLED" at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, then "who" are you saying are the "we which are ALIVE and remain" ones? if "100% of Believers" are "KILLED" (as the "witnesses").
Or are saying that the "2W" represent only "some" believers" (the ones who "witness" and give "testimony" and do all that the "2W" are shown doing), but the rest of the believers are, like, slackers who don't actually "do" what these are shown doing? Thus are not "KILLED" but still "ascend" up to Heaven with them (because they are believers too... just remain "ALIVE" and are not "KILLED" to become "the DEAD in Christ" like these "2W [groups]" are)??
So, I'm just wondering your viewpoint here... if the "2W [groups]" are "KILLED"... who (in your view) are the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." (are they "NOT witnesses" or what?)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The problem with post-tribber and pre-wrath viewpoints is that there's no comfort in the idea of those who happen to live through the numerous horrors to those points of alleged rapture will THEN be called up. One would have to be a very warped and sick puppy to think that the sadistic, masochistic mentality behind passing through such horrors, only to THEN be delivered...that's beyond rational thought that one could sit back with a manic smile and say, "Oh, that's all so comforting...I can't wait..."
Also, what's interesting is the rapture itself, which is vastly different in its overall character and imagery than that of His Second Coming. In the rapture description, we're not told He will be seated on a white horse, not yet being called Faithful and True, no judging and making war, no mention of eyes as flaming fire, no mention of many crowns on His Head, no mention of any name written yet that no man knows, no mention of His wearing a vesture dipped in blood, and no mention of His being called The Word of God.
Why? The only thing that makes sense is that His coming for His Church is in peace, not war; coming back just as He had departed, which was showering the Church with blessings and instructions, no blood on His vesture, and His feet never touching the ground at His coming for the Church.
Ahh, and then there are those who believe the Church is one of the two witnesses, which means that the Church has only 42 months to look forward to in exercising the power over the earthly elements, and even able to call down fire from Heaven, and to cause plagues upon those who will not hear the word of the Lord, but then to finally be overpowered and killed by the man of Sin...the very Church the Lord promised the Gates of Hell cannot allegedly withstand. So much for that promise, huh? That makes the Lord a fickle liar, very much like the Mormon god, and the gods of other religions that have experienced doctrinal shifts like Darwin's evolutionary model of one species morphing into another over time...and yet the God of the Bible said that He does not change...
What's also missing in that scenario of the Church having power to exercise in the first 42 months is the transformation of the very character of those people. Frankly, I can't imagine many modern, professing believers being trusted with power to wield over this world and to kill those who would do harm to them. Most would have to be forced into being more like robots to ensure they don't abuse the power given to them. So, unless there were some superimposition of a character shift in modern believers, there would certainly be abuses.
And then we have the preterists, who believe that we're already in the Millennium, meaning that scripture doesn't even say what it means through those many times it specified it being one thousand years. By allegorizing scripture to that extent, they have made it say anything they want...
Many views, all of which divide and distract the masses from arriving at the one thing that guarantees the revelation of truth to them. (1 John 2:27) This has the enemy of our souls laughing with derision and glee. He loves it when people bicker over even things like Eschatology. Failures in thinking through a belief system to see the man fallacies created by their beliefs by letting themselves think through to the logical conclusions of their beliefs along this line, that's a common malady that's most unfortunate.
And, yes, there are those who are the gleeful table-turners, thinking that by aiming the same elements back at me will avail them something meaningful. How petty and petulant!
Folks, we are ALL liars! When compared to the One, glorious Lord over all creation, we are most miserable.
One thing I do know...the Lord is true, all the time, in every thing.
Amen
MM
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The problem with post-tribber and pre-wrath viewpoints is that there's no comfort in the idea of those who happen to live through the numerous horrors to those points of alleged rapture will THEN be called up. One would have to be a very warped and sick puppy to think that the sadistic, masochistic mentality behind passing through such horrors, only to THEN be delivered...that's beyond rational thought that one could sit back with a manic smile and say, "Oh, that's all so comforting...I can't wait..."
Also, what's interesting is the rapture itself, which is vastly different in its overall character and imagery than that of His Second Coming. In the rapture description, we're not told He will be seated on a white horse, not yet being called Faithful and True, no judging and making war, no mention of eyes as flaming fire, no mention of many crowns on His Head, no mention of any name written yet that no man knows, no mention of His wearing a vesture dipped in blood, and no mention of His being called The Word of God.
Why? The only thing that makes sense is that His coming for His Church is in peace, not war; coming back just as He had departed, which was showering the Church with blessings and instructions, no blood on His vesture, and His feet never touching the ground at His coming for the Church.
Ahh, and then there are those who believe the Church is one of the two witnesses, which means that the Church has only 42 months to look forward to in exercising the power over the earthly elements, and even able to call down fire from Heaven, and to cause plagues upon those who will not hear the word of the Lord, but then to finally be overpowered and killed by the man of Sin...the very Church the Lord promised the Gates of Hell cannot allegedly withstand. So much for that promise, huh? That makes the Lord a fickle liar, very much like the Mormon god, and the gods of other religions that have experienced doctrinal shifts like Darwin's evolutionary model of one species morphing into another over time...and yet the God of the Bible said that He does not change...
What's also missing in that scenario of the Church having power to exercise in the first 42 months is the transformation of the very character of those people. Frankly, I can't imagine many modern, professing believers being trusted with power to wield over this world and to kill those who would do harm to them. Most would have to be forced into being more like robots to ensure they don't abuse the power given to them. So, unless there were some superimposition of a character shift in modern believers, there would certainly be abuses.
And then we have the preterists, who believe that we're already in the Millennium, meaning that scripture doesn't even say what it means through those many times it specified it being one thousand years. By allegorizing scripture to that extent, they have made it say anything they want...
Many views, all of which divide and distract the masses from arriving at the one thing that guarantees the revelation of truth to them. (1 John 2:27) This has the enemy of our souls laughing with derision and glee. He loves it when people bicker over even things like Eschatology. Failures in thinking through a belief system to see the man fallacies created by their beliefs by letting themselves think through to the logical conclusions of their beliefs along this line, that's a common malady that's most unfortunate.
And, yes, there are those who are the gleeful table-turners, thinking that by aiming the same elements back at me will avail them something meaningful. How petty and petulant!
Folks, we are ALL liars! When compared to the One, glorious Lord over all creation, we are most miserable.
One thing I do know...the Lord is true, all the time, in every thing.
Amen
MM
Yeah that language comes from here brother it’s a reference to the messiah the only man ever promised to rule the kingdom of God with a rod of iron the son
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalm 2:6-9, 12
It should be clear In scrioture who the son of man seated at the right hand of God is
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
israel )
and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ( she was promised a son would be born who would rule all nations from the throne of God )
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-2, 5 KJV
The woman israel was expecting a man child to be born who would rule all nations because the prophets foretold that
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Isaiah 9:6-7
the man child who israel was expecting wouod be born to rule is Jesus messiah who is the ruler of all creation
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
After he gave his followers this commission he was then taken up to be seated at the right hand of God where he rules the kingdom
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
where he rules from throne of heaven at Gods right hand. After Jesus ascended I to heaven Satan and his angels followed and went to war heaven but Satan and his angels lost of course and were then barred from heaven forever but were cast into earth for a time
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:7-12 KJV
So you have all of heaven and those in heaven celebrating saying the kingdom is here we’ve been redeemed ….but on earth at the same time you have the war I folding on earth between Satan and those who believe and are the brothers and sisters of Christ , the children of God
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
Its why Peter and Paul explain of our spiritual enemy on earth and that we need to keep vigilant against him he’s always working to destroy people
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
remember the vision in revelation ?
“went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
The apostles were teaching us how to fight the battle because it’s a spiritual war with heavenly wicked beings which were expelled
“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ( Satan declared war against believers on earth having already lost against Christ in heaven )
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:10-17 KJV
The vision in revelation is based on Old Testament prophecy regarding Jesus and his kingdom it’s the “ revelation of Jesus Christ “
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalm 2:6-9, 12
It should be clear In scrioture who the son of man seated at the right hand of God is
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
israel ) and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ( she was promised a son would be born who would rule all nations from the throne of God )
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-2, 5 KJV
The woman israel was expecting a man child to be born who would rule all nations because the prophets foretold that
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Isaiah 9:6-7
the man child who israel was expecting wouod be born to rule is Jesus messiah who is the ruler of all creation
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
After he gave his followers this commission he was then taken up to be seated at the right hand of God where he rules the kingdom
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
where he rules from throne of heaven at Gods right hand. After Jesus ascended I to heaven Satan and his angels followed and went to war heaven but Satan and his angels lost of course and were then barred from heaven forever but were cast into earth for a time
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:7-12 KJV
So you have all of heaven and those in heaven celebrating saying the kingdom is here we’ve been redeemed ….but on earth at the same time you have the war I folding on earth between Satan and those who believe and are the brothers and sisters of Christ , the children of God
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
Its why Peter and Paul explain of our spiritual enemy on earth and that we need to keep vigilant against him he’s always working to destroy people
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
remember the vision in revelation ?
“went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
The apostles were teaching us how to fight the battle because it’s a spiritual war with heavenly wicked beings which were expelled
“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ( Satan declared war against believers on earth having already lost against Christ in heaven )
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:10-17 KJV
The vision in revelation is based on Old Testament prophecy regarding Jesus and his kingdom it’s the “ revelation of Jesus Christ “
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I liked what you said up to this point. The woman represents Israel. Do you see the Church as the offspring of Israel?
Also, Satan doesn't want to destroy people, he wants to destroy peoples faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He wants people alive otherwise what point being a narcissistic megalomaniac bent on universal domination if there is no-one to fawn over you.
Also, Satan doesn't want to destroy people, he wants to destroy peoples faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He wants people alive otherwise what point being a narcissistic megalomaniac bent on universal domination if there is no-one to fawn over you.
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In my post, I'd also put (on the bottom line):
"See also the wording in Rev2:26-27a"
So, Rev2:26-27 is worded like this [prefaced by verse 18 saying]:
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[...]
Rev 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So we see in this text, the "I" is Jesus (speaking of Himself) and the "to him" and the "he" (that He "will give" to) being someone besides Himself.
So, who is that?
"See also the wording in Rev2:26-27a"
So, Rev2:26-27 is worded like this [prefaced by verse 18 saying]:
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[...]
Rev 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So we see in this text, the "I" is Jesus (speaking of Himself) and the "to him" and the "he" (that He "will give" to) being someone besides Himself.
So, who is that?
I liked what you said up to this point. The woman represents Israel. Do you see the Church as the offspring of Israel?
Also, Satan doesn't want to destroy people, he wants to destroy peoples faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He wants people alive otherwise what point being a narcissistic megalomaniac bent on universal domination if there is no-one to fawn over you.
Also, Satan doesn't want to destroy people, he wants to destroy peoples faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He wants people alive otherwise what point being a narcissistic megalomaniac bent on universal domination if there is no-one to fawn over you.
yes they become the seed of Abraham in Christ the offspring of the covenant given to israel in him the gospel. The children of God
The promise to the woman isreal of a messiah was also for all the earth
“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
Isaiah 49:6 KJV
Christs brethren are those folks
“For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Matthew 12:50 KJV
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9 KJV
In saving also gentiles he made them one people who believe no longer Jew and gentile but the israel of God and hiers of abrahams promise.
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
Acts 1:9 KJV
“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
“who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:”
Colossians 1:13
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17
everyone of the church when Jesus went up was israelite so it sort of makes perfect sense to me anyways . It’s okay if you dont agree there’s no offense or anything
When they began converting gentiles after pentocost all the apostles and early church were of Israel and when a person is baptized into Christ they also become one of Gods children in Christ a seed of Abraham’s promise that began in Israel who indeed is the woman recognized in Joseph’s dream as the sun moon and twelve stars.
The son of man promised to be born is Jesus who was taken to the right hand of God upon the throne
Clearly believers remained on earth battling Satan the church that’s why they are teaching these things
Sort of if Peter is an member of the church and is teschkng the church in his words then it makes absolutely perfect sense
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ( this is why I said destroy seems plausible devour is relatively close to destroy he’s always been trying to kill man ) whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
and further it explains why Jesus promised they would all endure great persecutions even some would be put to death for his name after he left
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
that’s the church on earth he is warring with it’s why they went through such great tribulations then
“confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22 KJV
The church are the people of Gods kingdom his hiers in the body of Christ who makes us his brethren
Right Jesus is who that’s talking about he’s the son of God who was given all creation into his hands to rule as king of kings after he rose up he was taken up to his throne
not really sure what your saying or arguing about the son of man’s brethren are his followers , Christian’s , the church
not really sure what your saying or arguing about the son of man’s brethren are his followers , Christian’s , the church
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^ (to add to that ^ )
Rev2-3 is in the context of "the things WHICH ARE" (Rev1:19b), which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1/22:6]";
Rev4:1 through chpt 19 (parts of 20) is the section about "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (per 1:1 [22:6] / 1:19c / 4:1, "SHEW"), by contrast (i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book [aka what we commonly call the 7-year Tribulation Period, which immediately precedes and leads up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19])
Rev2-3 is in the context of "the things WHICH ARE" (Rev1:19b), which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1/22:6]";
Rev4:1 through chpt 19 (parts of 20) is the section about "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (per 1:1 [22:6] / 1:19c / 4:1, "SHEW"), by contrast (i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book [aka what we commonly call the 7-year Tribulation Period, which immediately precedes and leads up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19])
Would you mind clarifying the part I bolded (in your sentence ^ )?
Do you mean "taken up to his [God's] throne"... or "taken up to his [Jesus'] throne"?
Rev3:21 had said,
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (i.e. set down with [G3326, accompanying] My Father in HIS [My Father's] throne.)
Do you mean "taken up to his [God's] throne"... or "taken up to his [Jesus'] throne"?
Rev3:21 had said,
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (i.e. set down with [G3326, accompanying] My Father in HIS [My Father's] throne.)