Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#181
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#181
cv5 said:
Right. Everyone who:

-responds in repentance to the call of the Lord
-and everyone who asks
-and everyone who is thirsty and drinks freely
-and everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord
-and everyone who picks up their axe head

is appointed to the gift of salvation and gift of saving faith through the gift of grace.
Because God is omnibenevolent, good, always good and gives good gifts even to the undeserving and unjust and unbelieving.

Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Just to let you know, your perception of time, your perception of cause and effect, your perception of sequence and motion as regards events.....

Does not necessarily apply to the Lord God Who is outside of time and created time.
Click to expand...
The parable of the sower proves that not all who respond to the outward call are called inwardly as Christ confirmed when He said "Many are called but few are chosen."

It is only those who are born again by grace before the foundations of the world and before time began, that truly respond and endure to the end, not those who fall by the wayside and prove that they were never truly called.

God's will of command in time works towards His eternal will of decree and therefore the command to repent and believe works as both a an aroma of life unto life to some and an aroma of death unto death to others ( 2 Cor 2:15-16).

Christian's are called to proclaim the greatest news this world has and will ever hear to all people, even those who hates us to reflect the grace of God shown to them who were once His enemies.
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#182
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#182
ThereRoseaLamb said:
No it simply proves Calvinist twist certain Scriptures, no matter how plain they are, and totally ignore others.
Click to expand...
since you can not prove what you say from Scripture I am left with no choice but to disregard anything you say on the matter and leave with you the wise warning below.

1716275800459.jpeg
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#183
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#183
FollowerofShiloh said:
Ephesians, Mark, Luke, Acts were fulfilled.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
Click to expand...
you have not personally answered the question given to you. How do you know you are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#184
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#184
Evmur said:
This is not at all difficult, Calvin ASSUMED upon human logic alone that if it be true that God has predestined and elected some to be saved then necessarily He must have passed over all others.

There IS no scripture for this.

we are predestined and chosen to be conformed to the image of God's Belovéd and we have been chosen in Christ before all worlds began to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.

That is to be the church, His body.

It excludes NOBODY from being saved, in fact since all others are to be judged by how they dealt with the Lord's brethren it opens the door for a much, much greater mercy.
Click to expand...
The Scriptures plainly proclaim that not all are saved and those who are saved are few which is why the doctrine of sovereign election drips from just about every page of Scripture given to humble men to know that salvation belongs to the Lord and not the choice of men as you assume.

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble therefore those who are never humbled this side of eternity will prove themselves to be reprobates who God decreed to be handed over to the way of their sin unto the goodness of His perfectly holy and just wrath which the Scriptures below confirm.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The Gospel is commanded to be preached to all without exception even though He has decreed to save His sheep through it and not the goats who are made more accountable for hearing it.
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#185
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#185
Evmur said:
God's will for mankind is fully revealed in the creation story.

God took the man and placed him a garden of great beauty and abundance. All mankind was in Adam so this can be taken as God's will for all mankind.

The man rebelled against God's will.
Click to expand...
God who decreed all things before time including the Fall. He called man whom He created in His image and likeness very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall He called man only evil continually (Gen 6:5) and justly killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood bar the remnant in the Ark according to His will. His grace is seen in those He saved and not those He justly killed for their evil.

Man lost the image and likeness of God when he died spiritually and can only be made alive again in Christ who died and rose again for His people in whom the great beauty of His image is restored.
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#186
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#186
Evmur said:
You start off with scripture but very soon veer off into man's logic and suppositions. You take theologians [however great] and hold their commentaries up as though it were scripture truth.

Nowhere does the bible say that God desires the death and damnation of the sinner. That's what theologians assume.
Click to expand...
Your assumption is made on the notion that God loves everyone including those He justly casts into Hell but the 18 Scriptures below prove otherwise.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​
For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​
And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​
For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​
The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​
Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​
Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​
All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​
I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#187
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#187
Evmur said:
The Jews are among the most recognisable people upon earth. I can spot one from 500 yards in the dark :) Hitler knew who they were.

The covenant God made with Abraham and his seed is an everlasting covenant, the covenant of the law has ended.

Paul bases his doctrine of predestination and election upon God's dealings with Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Israel. Now if God does not keep His promise to them, how can you be sure He will keep His promise to you?

Moreover Paul says that the Jews the very enemies of the gospel yet as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the fathers for the call and gifts of God cannot be revoked.

Can't call back the blessing once it has been given [ask Esau] and all the prophecies concerning Israel are that their ending shall be greater than their beginning ... that one prophecy alone blows all opposition out of the water.
Click to expand...
The eternal promises of God are with His spiritual seed and not those of the flesh. God saves by grace and not by race.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
 
maxamir

maxamir

Active member
#188
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
#188
studier said:
Eph2:8 the language is not conclusive but interpretational that the highlighted clause speaks of "faith" being the gift.

Php1:29 does say: on behalf of Christ to believe in[to] Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was graciously given to you Philippians.

Acts18:27 does say they had believed through/by means of grace.

Some of the complexity of the concept of Faith is that the word can be interpreted both subjectively and objectively:
  • It is what we do (believe, have faith).
  • It is what we learn, understand and believe (the faith).
It's just as easy to say we believe what we were graciously given to believe, so the content that we believe is the gift and without the gift of the content there is nothing to believe, so ultimately we can say belief in the content is a gift, because without the content or the person necessary to believe, there is no meaningful belief.

Eph2:8 can easily be interpreted (grammatically easier and cleaner than "faith") as saying the by grace salvation through/by faith (first clause) is the gift.

Php1:29 has in context in 1:27 " the good news [of] the Christ" and "the faith [of] the good news". These could be parallels: The Christ is the content of the Good News & The Faith is the content of the Good News. The Faith is what we believe - the Good News that Jesus is the Christ is what we believe. The Faith is the Good News that Jesus is the Christ. We believe the Faith. We believe the Good News.

To believe is a gracious gift because the object of our faith - what we believe - is a gift John3:16.

Acts18:27 can just as easily fit the above.
Click to expand...
God chose to use the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant the gift of faith to His people by hearing it (1 Cor 1:21, Rom 10:17) which is what was accounted to Abraham unto righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
 
selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#189
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#189
maxamir said:
please understand that the word foreknew does not mean that God simply knew what people would do in time and then stepped back out of time to choose those He saw would choose Him. This would be called postdestination and not predestination which clearly says in Scripture that God chose some before they were born or could do anything.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

These are those God eternally loves because He knows them intimately in the same manner that Joseph did not intimately know Mary until Jesus was born which does not mean that he did not know about her.

Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

To say that anyone was chosen by God conditioned upon what they did would be contrary to the concept of grace and Scripture.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Yes, I’ve always believed that God predestined and chose before …. but could it be that God chose His Elect back then because of His foreknowledge and approval of them? By the way, I love this topic of election—exciting! —selah
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#190
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#190
FollowerofShiloh said:
It seems rather difficult to know the end of something unless you know the entirety of it. Otherwise, how do you know it ended?
Click to expand...
Not if you are God and had determined the end and is going to make sure it comes to pass. Ever read Revelation? You know the end without knowing all things in between.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#191
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#191
Magenta said:
How would you describe/define God's omniscience?

Do you think it is limited somehow?
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe he has placed those limits to work within the time frame he created. We see examples over and over in scripture. God is perfect in knowledge. If something can be known, God knows it, our thoughts, the hairs on our head, the number of grains of sand, etc.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#192
Nov 20, 2018
22,854
8,328
113
#192
maxamir said:
The parable of the sower proves that not all who respond to the outward call are called inwardly as Christ confirmed when He said "Many are called but few are chosen."

It is only those who are born again by grace before the foundations of the world and before time began, that truly respond and endure to the end, not those who fall by the wayside and prove that they were never truly called.

God's will of command in time works towards His eternal will of decree and therefore the command to repent and believe works as both a an aroma of life unto life to some and an aroma of death unto death to others ( 2 Cor 2:15-16).

Christian's are called to proclaim the greatest news this world has and will ever hear to all people, even those who hates us to reflect the grace of God shown to them who were once His enemies.
Click to expand...
Judas did drink of the cups in Luke 22. And he definitely was not saved. Nothing new here.

BUT.....those there who drank the cups in commitment were all saved.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#193
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#193
maxamir said:
The eternal promises of God are with His spiritual seed and not those of the flesh. God saves by grace and not by race.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Click to expand...
Israel or "spiritual" Israel is not the body of Christ. Romans 9 is all about God's physical people Israel. Some people confuse the two.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#194
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#194
maxamir said:
you have not personally answered the question given to you. How do you know you are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
The bible declares that those who believe the gospel are sealed by the Holy Spirit. How does one know? Look no further than the scriptures.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#195
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#195
Inquisitor said:
I have already stated that belief would be the preferred translation.

The demons knew the identity of the Christ, 'we know who you are!'

The demons did not need a belief in the messiah.

We need to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus
and confess His name to be saved (Romans 10:9).
Click to expand...

So, you're saying something like 'we know who you are Jesus, but we don't believe it'?

I'm not sure what you mean by the the demons not needing a belief in the messiah. Need for what?

I assume you're short-handing "His name" meaning confess "Lord Jesus." I'm not saying you need to care what I say, but when we use Romans 10, it concerns me that we firstly miss or do not bring out what Paul says in 10:16, and we don't bring out Jesus' titles, since this is what needs to be understood and confessed. Then belief and confession need to be understood in light of 10:16 for them to take on their full meaning.
 
T

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
#196
Jan 17, 2023
4,766
2,047
113
#196
maxamir said:
since you can not prove what you say from Scripture I am left with no choice but to disregard anything you say on the matter and leave with you the wise warning below.

View attachment 263976
Click to expand...
It has been proven wrong with Scripture all over this sight. Still the hard core refuse to accept the Word.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#197
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#197
maxamir said:
God chose to use the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant the gift of faith to His people by hearing it (1 Cor 1:21, Rom 10:17) which is what was accounted to Abraham unto righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
Click to expand...

This doesn't deal with the details in the first 3 verses under discussion. You can just as easily be compounding error as proof-texting truth.

1 Cor 1:21 says God saves those who believe the message. Message > belief > salvation. No gifted faith here.

Rom 10:17 says faith/belief [results] from [something] heard. Can't believe something we haven't heard. Message > Belief of Message. No gifted faith here.

Rom 4:9 is made clear by Rom 4:3 which says Abraham's believed God and it (his belief/faith) was credited to him for righteousness. This is belief (of what God said to him in Gen12 & 15) resulting in his belief in God and what God spoke credited to him for righteousness. God speaks > Abraham believes God > God credits Abraham's belief for righteousness. No gifted faith here.

The above just as the prior 3 verses seem to me to more readily say the content of God's Message/Word/Good News is the gift that we can believe, which in effect through a bit of simplification can say the belief is a gift. He gives us The Faith (Message) which we believe/have faith in. If not for the gift of the Word, we could not believe/have faith in the Word = in effect our faith is a gift because what we have faith in is a gift. God gives us The Faith for us to have Faith in.

The Faith authored and perfected by Jesus Christ (Heb12:2) was delivered to us in finality by the time Jude was written (Jude 1:3). The phrase "the faith [of] the gospel (good news)" can legitimately be translated as The Faith/The Good News or the Faith from the source being the Good News/Message. The Faith = The Good News or The Good News (heard) > The Faith.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#200
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#200
maxamir said:
God chose to use the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant the gift of faith to His people by hearing it (1 Cor 1:21, Rom 10:17) which is what was accounted to Abraham unto righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
Click to expand...

Sorry, the reference for my last paragraph after Jude 1:3 in my last post to you is Philippians 1:27.

studier said:
The Faith authored and perfected by Jesus Christ (Heb12:2) was delivered to us in finality by the time Jude was written (Jude 1:3). The phrase "the faith [of] the gospel (good news)" can legitimately be translated as The Faith/The Good News or the Faith from the source being the Good News/Message. The Faith = The Good News or The Good News (heard) > The Faith.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.