Salvation is a Free Gift.

Don't think so. I believe spiritual hearing must be given by God through being born again.
Yeah, after thinking about it further, I agree, that to hear and to listen are completely different things and I'm not sure
what I was thinking at the time. So, I therefore believe that to hear Him is the correct interpretation, and that only His sheep can
do so.

Regarding the Jews, I disagree with your interpretation. I think the point being made was that the hearing of His voice
only occurs spiritually unto the learning/believing of His doctrine, through the Holy Spirit, and is unto all of His sheep - not only the Jew but the Gentile too. However, it does not occur through their giving of attention with learning. His sheep hear because God had made them His sheep, gave them spiritual ears to hear, and willed that they hear - not that they listen, learn and thereby become His sheep - it is all by God and nothing by the sheep. No one can make of themselves His sheep - that could only be accomplished by God alone.

What makes you think I think that at all?

If you had read what I said with understanding, you would know I don't think that... at all (about Judas).

Ah made laugh 23 pages on something so easy to understand. Looks at can "didn't say can of worms". Just playing...

I think some forget about the Sower and the seed. The enemy always comes right away to steal the word. Hey.. carry on

13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
And how are they to hear without someone preaching?


It's all about preaching the Gospel.

Romans 10:13-15

Oh, I see.

Foghorn said:
"All those who are drawn believe.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10

If you're of God, you hear, if you're drawn, you come. It's that simple.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37.


A person is drawn because God opens their heart, ..... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. Acts 16:14.
This woman is being drawn.

Not all are drawn, And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65. Its the Holy Spirit that is doing the drawing.

Judas is proof not all are drawn."

Paul's response -
Firstly, you gave no scripture in your post that says all those who are drawn believe. You just stated it as a starting premise. But it is not true that all who are drawn believe.

Secondly, you are reading Jesus' words as if the verbs are gnomic present, when He is talking to a contemporary audience about what is happening at that time. The dynamics of that time before Christ's death and resurrection and before the giving of the Holy Spirit.
"In English grammar, the gnomic present is a verb in the present tense used to express a general truth without reference to time. The gnomic present is also called gnomic aspect and generic aspect."

Thirdly, when Jesus says, v. 27 "My sheep hear/listen to my voice, and I know them and they follow me", it is clear that the hearing is not just picking up the sound of Jesus' voice, but is paying attention to it so as to follow Him. It is therefore the case, that those who are not Jesus' sheep, are those who are not listening so as to follow. They do not believe because they are not listening with attention to His words.

So, if you are of God you don't just hear, but you listen.
Jesus does not say what you state: If you are drawn, you come. He implies rather, that if you are coming, you are being drawn by the Father.

So, it is not gnomic describing a general truth without reference to time, but is describing something that is happening in the context of what is happening before Jesus death, resurrection and glory. if you were coming to Jesus before His death and resurrection, you were being drawn/attracted by the Father. Jesus said that if He be lifted up, HE would draw all men to Himself, John 12:32) So, the dynamics of the drawing/attracting to Jesus changed. During Jesus' ministry it was the Father drawing men to come to inspect Christ through the controversial miracles and teaching He gave the Son to share. After Jesus' death and resurrection, it is the message of Jesus crucified and resurrected that the Lord working with preachers to do signs and wonders in His name, Mark 16:20. We are told that Jesus had "no form or comeliness, and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him," Is. 53:2. This is why Jesus needed the father's works in Him to draw men to Himself before His death.

Everything that the Father is giving me shall come to me; and him that i coming to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37.

This is saying that everything (not "everyone") God was giving Jesus - the tests, challenges, works, words, argumentative religious leaders, demanding but ungodly audiences - would come to Jesus. There was no escape from these for Jesus.. And during His ministry Jesus would never throw out from His presence anyone coming to Him for whatever reason. Jesus patiently endured the contradiction of sinners Heb. 12:3, and never told anyone who came to Him to go away, even when His disciples told him to do so, Mark 6:36.
"Coming to Jesus" does not equate to "believing in Jesus". It simply means to draw nearer to Jesus so as to be in His presence.

A person is drawn because God opens their heart, ..... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. Acts 16:14.
This woman is being drawn.

Opening someone's heart to believe some truth is simply to persuade that person towards embracing that truth. We all can do that in many non-religious areas, and do it the same way God does: by explaining the truth clearly and persuasively.

Not all are drawn, And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Because Jesus was not attractive Himself, it required the father's work in Him to draw people's attention to Him so that they would come to Him wherever He happened to be.

John 6:65. Its the Holy Spirit that is doing the drawing.
Scripture does not directly attribute drawing to Jesus to the Holy Spirit. However, one could argue that the miracles done by the Holy Spirit through the church attracts many to Jesus.

Judas is proof not all are drawn."

You are basing this statement on your first premise that you gave no biblical text for, but just assumed. But it is not true that all who are drawn believe. You gave no text supporting that claim. Coming to Jesus is not the same thing as believing in Him. During His ministry any came to Jesus who did not believe in Him.

That is Beautiful!

Thank you. It was an earlier one from before I started dating them. You can also tell because it is all purple LOL.

I did update it a bit a while back. As the years went by while I was designing Scripture panels,
I naturally collected more and better items to work with. That definitely helps! I also started
designing them all sized 3600 x 2400 pixels @ 300 ppi, so needed larger ephemera to work with,
and lots of my earlier finds were much too small. I still have most of it because even if it is small,
I can still layer those items in as colour bursts or work them into the background. Ack. Who am
I kidding? Mostly I never even look at them, as all my newer stuff is mostly in a different folder.
I just have trouble throwing things away hehee.

Really? It looks like you just made it. You really do amazing work

Why do you believe that "the point being made was that the hearing of His voice only occurs spiritually unto the learning/believing of His doctrine?" What in the text conveys that idea? Where are "spiritual ears" mentioned in the Bible?

"How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" Rom. 10:14 Therefore, hearing precedes faith.

But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing you may have life through His name." John 20:31 Therefore, faith precedes life.

So, why do you say we don't listen, learn and thereby [believe and] become His sheep?

Thank you! I updated the angel, mostly...

I tried to find the older one but... oh! Here is a similar one. Back when I started designing these in
2018, I was using an online editor that eventually went offline for a while and came back dumbed
down so much it was useless to me. That was when my daughter got me photoshop .. Anyways,
I did not save the original, but just overwrote the new onto the older PSD working layered file.

But it was a different angel... like this, and similar to this panel also:

I used to call them templates, because I thought I could use the same one over again a number of times
with minor changes perhaps, for different verses, but discovered right away that I really was not happy with
that plan, as it was better by far to make each one more or less unique... Then again, at the beginning,
I had way less to work with and was learning how to do it as I went along. I did use photoshop a little
bit at work, but digital retouching was mostly done in another department. The same tools are used for
the edits I make, colour correcting and erasing, cloning, sizing and such, to each element as I add it.

Good. I'm glad you don't make that same mistake.

D
Do you think Judas was drawn?

I believe many of the texts speak for themselves. Also keep in mind, I am not trying to change your mind. So I will not explain every text for you. There are some I will as I see are necessary. I’m just hoping to get you to look at scripture in context. 🙂

Read the text. Leave worldly wisdom out of it. It’s really not that difficult

I believe that the teaching of doctrine - the edification of the elect/newly saved - is the is the responsibility of those of us already saved - God has assigned that responsibility to us to be done with the Holy Spirit. However, I also believe that it is only God alone who actually does the saving - not us - and through which, the Holy Spirit is given to them.
Only those who have been born-again and having the Holy Spirit, can hear spiritually - those not born again, cannot, because they have not the Holy Spirit.
1 Co 2:10 - 14 tells us this in no uncertain terms (not to be disrespectful, but if you haven't already done so, please read them closely) - that it is impossible for "natural man" to comprehend things spiritual. The "natural man" represents those not saved, not born again. That is, in order to gain true spiritual understanding, one must first have been indwelled with Holy Spirit and through Him, we gain spiritual sight and hearing - that indwelling only occurs by becoming saved/born-again.

[1Co 2:10-14 KJV]
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

We can see this doctrine also visible in the following verses. In effect, they say that their eyes and ears were first blessed by God (given spiritual hearing and sight through the Holy Spirit) in order for them to able to spiritually perceive/understand what was occurring. Many others couldn't (I realize that the Jews and Christ's disciples were being spoken to in this example, but nevertheless, it the same for all of the saved and unsaved as we can see is in 1Co 2:10-14 above). The "But blessed are your eyes...." below, was not just the quick turn of a phrase, but instead, the revealing of a doctrine by Christ.

[Mat 13:14-16 KJV]
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

We can see the reverse of that in these verses. Notice the "they could not believe". That is, until indwelled with the Holy Spirit,
they could not truly believe. They thought they did, and that they had spiritual hearing and sight, but they didn't. And so it is with all those not having the Holy Spirit.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Everyone who comes into this world, comes into it as an unbeliever blinded by Satan. Therefore, unless God intervenes, they remain so as one cannot give to themselves spiritual sight nor hearing.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In these verses we can see that the edification of the new saint is the responsibility of those saved and having spiritual knowledge.

[Eph 4:11-14 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[2Co 2:14-17 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

I think by this, they made themselves blind and deaf

Exactly what happened after generations of rejecting his word and taking on false prophecy and worshipping the gods of the nations around them God came to this conclusion

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭

If we just start here it appears god is just doing this arbitrarily but the reasoning is found other places

“For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭29:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number. Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. ( it’s thier fault not his )

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: that he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:2-7, 11-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thanking the Lord of Lords for us the people to stand in belief to what is done for us by Son Jesus to us, Amazing Grace this is, as John Newton who wrote that song after getting saved by God and stopped his slave trading business he had been doing priorly
God simply loves us all, this ti me is deeper than the Mississippi River
Wider and higher also. As I trust my Father in risen Son to reveal as Father decides to reveal to sort out the truth in his love for us all, proven in risen Son to me, thanks friend in the risen Son
We can now confidently, enter God's courts with thanksgiving and praise (Psalms 100:4) and see wha t is done by Son for us (Psalms 103:12)
And then me asking God this? How far is the East from the West?
I see this, it is ongoing forever is it not?
Amazing, amazing, amazing
Wow, woe is me
Isaiah 6:1-7