Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein,
that there should be time no longer.
There is no such thing as time for it does not exist, and time is not a universal principle, but it is a temporary measurement that applies to the creation concerning mankind.
Before the creation there is no time for all things go on the same with nothing to be scheduled.
Time only applies to the creation as a measurement tool for things are scheduled concerning God's schedule, and the things that people schedule.
And the sun is the measuring tool that measures a day, and then we break it down to hours, minutes, and seconds, and build it up to weeks, months, and years.
When the saints are at the New Jerusalem there will be no time for all things go on the same, and there is nothing to be scheduled.
Time is not a universal principle but only used for the creation as a measuring tool, and then will not be needed anymore.
The sun is the measuring tool for time but the sun will pass away for at the New Jerusalem the sun will be gone.
Time is a creation like all creation and will pass away like all creation for time is not a universal principle, so it has no bearing on anything apart from the creation for it does not exist.
You said “Before the creation there is no time for all things go on the same with nothing to be scheduled.” This
I did mention that this is a fun topic didn’t i?
All philosophical topics are, because they have no answer.
You may see my answer as “insulting” but maybe I said that to engage you so you can tell me something better that hasn’t been said since Plato. Because I come from that area where people take a real subject like money or water and turn it into a philosophical debate for hours, days, months or years. Because it’s fun and it’s because what they do when they have a coffee and sit on it for hours.
The only slight advantage we have now, is that we’ve made some technological and mathematical progress to say that based on our observations, we see that everything has a beginning, just like the Bible says.
So, let’s recap again and maybe you will tell me something better and more engaging or more interesting as you’ve said.
- We do not understand what Time is actually in relation to our reality at a mathematical or physical level despite being very “real” for us.
- If we do not know what Time is, as a concept then we are very limited in asking questions about Time in our reality and Time outside of our reality (which is even more silly to ask), which is the “space” (if we can even call it that) where God is.
- We do know that everything had a beginning based on our observations so far, which requires a prime mover. So when God set this whole thing in motion, He also created what we perceive as Time. Since it’s a logical question of precedence based on what we’ve observed so far with our telescopes, we can say that when God created this universe, with what we perceive as time, it means that He stands outside of what we perceive as time.
- So, this takes Temporalism and Metaporal out of the picture immediately. We are left with ATemporalism, where according to your original post, you have made some incorrect assumptions about the position of God in relation to His creation.
Why on Earth would you think that a supreme Creator who has set this whole thing in motion is somehow “locked out” of His creation?
Not only He is not “locked out” or “frozen” but He sent His only Son here to join His creation and intercedes according to His will in the form of Miracles which defy logical and scientific explanation.
So, have you really thought about this deeply?
Time, as I understand it, is a way of measuring motion through space. However, the point of this thread is not so much about defining what time is, or different equations that try to measure it, but more about how time relates to God. Does God move through space or is he outside of time and thus “frozen” in a timeless state of awareness. Does God look upon our timeline as one would a string of pearls…seeing all parts, beginning to end from the outside or does He exist within the passage of time?
As far as your statements go…
* I dont think these concepts are “silly” or else they wouldn’t be discussed by very serious theologians and philosophers. Rather, I would argue that these concepts are fundamental in understanding how God relates to the world and how we relate to God.
* Who do you mean by “we”? Perhaps most Christians believe in a beginning, but that is not the case with many scientists or theorists. Some will argue that the universe is eternal or that the “big bang” wasn’t the beginning…and perhaps there have been many big bangs that have come about from a continually expanding or contracting universe. I would agree that the universe had a beginning, but that is by no means a unanimous view….even by some Christians. Some might even argue that there are multiple universes and thus our “beginning” is not the beginning.
*I also disagree with this. Just because God created time does not mean he necessarily stands outside of it. Again, if God does not exist in time, then there is no before or after to his actions. Everything is a constant present. He never thinks a new thought , never experiences an emotion, or never starts a new action. As these notions imply the passing of time. Thus, if God really created something out of nothing, it would imply the passage of time (a time when there was nothing and a time when there was something). Just because God created our space/time dimension does not necessitate that he must exist outside of time. If anything, modern understandings of time would lend themselves to the idea that there can be different perceptions of time. Something traveling near the speed of light or near a black hole experiences time in a very different way than we do. Also, if time is part of God’s essence or nature, then our time would be an extension of God, himself. So, no, I dont think this takes temporalism or metatemporalism out of the picture immediately. In fact, I think it is too simplistic to suggest that because God created something he must exist outside of it. We could say the same thing of “love” or “beauty.” Just because these are things that exist in creation, does not mean that God must exist apart from these qualities. God imbued the world with love as an extension of himself. At least that is how I would imagine it.
*I never suggested God is “locked out” of His creation. I am saying if God is not subject to past, present or future then the moment you were born and the moment you die are both seen by God as simultaneous, from God’s perspective. Imagine a string laying on the floor. The string represents our timeline where one section is your birth and one section is your death. While you can only experience things traveling one direction down the string, God sees the whole string at once. Thus, His ”interactions“ with us…expressing anger, sadness or joy based on the actions of your life are mere anthropomorphisms. God isn’t really “reacting“ to these events, because he has always seen them and always will.
So, I try to think about these things “deeply” which may be somewhat relative based on what someone perceives as a deep thought. Maybe I’m not thinking about it as deeply as I should…as I said, I admit a fair level of naïveté on the subject. However, to quickly dismiss concepts discussed by people likely much smarter than both of us seems to me like a very superficial way of discussing the subject, imo.
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