The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

But not with salvation itself. For salvation is a personal matter between the person and the Lord.

That will be like saying God sent someone to Hell, who if someone had prayed for that same person?
God would have saved him. That would be cheap salvation. For it depended upon man, not God.


Romans 9:15-16


For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


grace and peace ..............

Yes applying reasoning to your own understanding is one thing.

not placing yourself in the position whom the lord is speaking to is another

And placing yourself in the man authority is another

And not placing your self in only whom the lord is speaking to is another, as he's also speaking the same thing to whom is speaking it

But how many people have you sent to hell this last month, I believe the count is quite high isn't it.

Soooooooooo

Show scripture who had faith in the old testament

Okay well maybe not faith exactly. Banks are setup where we have faith that strangers will watch our money. Stores are setup with faith that people will pay for there items. Etc

Not all men have faith in Jesus.

Hmm okay, did I misread it?

I pray all the time that the word of God and the gospel would penetrate hearts and that the Lord would surround the lost with those willing to preach the gospel. Romans 9 has zero to do with my statement.

Yes, but all is well brother. Rest assured I’m not a Calvinist.

Faith is tied into a persons heart bro.

In the old t too

Ahhhh Non-Christians have brofaith (yeah that was a little weak)

Getting back to the OP… Calvinism is complete garbage, but for the sake of discussion: What do you do if you’re a non-elect, or you’re predestined to Hell?

faith comes by hearing the word

I have hundreds of scripture showing a man is a man Of God's faith before Christ.

I'm still waiting for all these people to show it.

For instance in scripture it say a man has none faith

It don't mean they don't have Gods faith

Will your worthy punishment for me from you, be to watch me 😂

It's not that I am ignoring you. I would like nothing better than to have a good solid discussion with you. However, we don't have a reasonable framework to build upon.

You ask me questions but when I reply you jump all over the place. A meaningful discussion must discuss one point at a time. Therefore, if you have something specific you would like to know from me, frame in a meaningful way. I will then gladly reply.

How about discussing the point I asked you 😊

I apologize up front for butting in, if you find this post unwanted. I would send you a private message but alas I am not a paying subscriber. I donate but do not subscribe.

I have some other things, related to the subject above, to share with you.

Like you, early in my life I knew about the Gospel message. I seemed to have a soft spot in my heart for Jesus Christ and knew, some how, that many things I saw in the church were either just not right or were hypocritical. Maybe, this is just one of the ways that our Lord keeps us safe until we are Regenerated. However, these were not guiding principles in my life. I was still running my life as a materialist and as if I couldn't wait to get to hell. Like many unbelievers, I tried to be a "good person" and maybe, just maybe, that would be good enough for God.

When time came to begin a true "conversion" experience, things happened very quickly. So much so, I had two burning questions: 1) What changed in my life and 2} Why now?

I knew the Bible had the answers - not a church - but the Bible. I dug in deep immediately and the Lord began to show me, within weeks, the answers I was looking for. These would be many of the great Doctrines of Faith. Only later, did I realize the need to assemble with like minded believers, couched in the Truth of God's Doctrines. Shortly after this, I came to know that the Lord had given me the gift of "teaching". How did I know this? Because I had a burning desire, to research and study God's word and share it with others. I learned to parse the Greek text because I didn't trust any translation and built a pretty good library over the years. In particular, to both sides of the Soteriological question. I studied the Scriptures because it was fun and my greatest enjoyment came from there and showing others. Only through these studies and God's revelatory grace did I begin to understand, that in order to have the proper understanding and not just knowledge, Doctrines had to be seen in both the "Eternal light" and the "Temporal light".

One of the problems, with having the gift of teaching though, is that it is easy to get frustrated with others who don't share your enthusiasm for every little detail of a Doctrinal subject. It took me years to understand that not all believers are gifted in the same way and as hard as I might, I still become frustrated. I do not mean to magnify myself. Just wanted to give you some background.

That brings me back to the two questions in my Conversion - what changed? Why Now?

The so called concept of "free will", does not answer these questions. Instead it makes Salvation a mystery and leaves one still feeling confused. Questions go unanswered. Why now and not fifteen years ago? Why do I approach the Gospel differently now? Why do the sins in my life bother me greatly now and not back then? If it is solely my choice, then why did I pick now? If I didn't really care back then, why do I care now?

Only in understanding PROPERLY - God's eternality, Sovereignty, Purpose and Execution, can one truly understand Soteriology and how it functions. On the Temporal surface, the Gospel message is simple. Repent and Believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation. Believe in the TRUTH, with all you heart, mind and soul.

But in understanding "what changed in my life and why now" - so much more must be known but once known, then the questions are answered and the mystery falls away. Confusion is replaced with assurance.

I don't know if any of this is helpful to you but I really wanted to reach out because I care about people and Love God's Saints.

well the op was not really about Calvinism...people have introduced it, but that was not the op

the op was about the idea that there were 2 classes of Christian

one being the 'elect', meaning you were chosen to be saved before being born
and
two the other being those who were not elect but yet could 'choose' to be saved

there are quite a few threads on Calvinism so no need to go there....but try to hold anyone to the actual op is like herding cats

there have been claims and false accustions about the op, saying it was started to gossip and so on. none of that is true and the op itself is plain enough with no ulterior motives

for the record, I certainly do not hold to the Bible saying there are 2 classes of believers or 2 ways to be saved

If it is not too much trouble... Please reframe your question to the specific point you are looking for.

sure.

Is all life in the book of life to begin with 😊

Have you heard this song before

the op is about labels it seems, although I don't believe in them myself

as that is what the op is about, you are going to obviously read about what the op is about

you do not have to participate if you do not want to. however if you do, you will read about what the op is about

I wrote the op, but I certainly do not hold to those beliefs. so then, it seems you might believe that people who do have to use labels like elect and non-elect, are involved in a vain pursuit. not my thing at all

Please refrain from posting to me videos or other nonsense. I am only interested in what the Scriptures have to say.

I have already answered this question. The only names that are in the Book of Life are the names that were written before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4). All others were not written in the book as proved in these two verses.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I f you don't believe what is written, then please give your explanation for these two verses.

I'll ask you again

Is all life in the book of life to begin with

If you answer yes or no I'll give you a biscuit 😊