There will be no Rapture!!!

The Church is nowhere mentioned in Revelation. Only Saints covered in the Blood of Yeshua. Former Ancestors? Either you are or not lineage of Abraham, by way of Noah, by way of Enoch or not. You act like I am a mere (adopted son).

Former?
Edomite?
Ishmaelite?

I'm not sure as to why you think I was acting in any negative manner toward you and your ancestry. Is that another deflection away from the topic? I was talking about me and my lineage, not yours. I don't know you at all, nor your background, so why even bring that up?

You choose to disavow Revelation 1-4 as having any mention of the Church in its universal sense, and perhaps your version of the Bible has none. Those seven churches were chosen by the Lord for a reason. The Church in Corinth had its issues, some of which were named among the seven in Revelation. The lamp stands as represented by those seven show to us that the Church in the universal sense has various maladies, all of which the major items are outlined within those churches.

Given your hermeneutic, it would seem that you consider Revelation to be only relevant to those seven churches, and here's why I see that as flawed:

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So, either Revelation is intended to be received by the Church in the universal sense by way of those seven being representative of all the Church, or it only applies to those seven. Consistent application of hermeneutics is key to presentation and establishment of doctrine.

Which is it?

MM

My direct ancestor is Abraham. But many on these forums are Gentiles grafted into the fold. Just clearing it up for them.

And John personally went to those Churches, along with his Disciples and did just that. John corrected the issues Jesus had with Paul's established churches in Asia Minor. But there were other established churches in Corinth and Rome and on islands where Paul set them up. But you are using these 7 Churches for more than Jesus instructed John to fix. You are going beyond the instructions of Christ for your own purpose to fit your view of eschatology.

John's Disciples:
Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Polycarp
Papias
Quadratus of Athens
Irenaeus of Lyons

I shall return... Whatever you post I will respond when I return.

Love You Brother in Christ Yeshua

You -- and many others -- always confuse the Second Coming of Christ with the Rapture. Jesus comes after the Great Tribulation in His Second Coming. That is entirely different from the Resurrection/Rapture, when He comes "in the air" and only momentarily for the saints. So read your Bible carefully and seen THE CONTRAST between the two events.

No that is NOT what is stated. So here is the actual verse: Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22) We need to be very careful to read the verse properly. "Much tribulation" has been the lot of Christians since the first century and continues to this day, with martyrdoms and imprisonment.

BUT THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS A UNIQUE EVENT RESERVED FOR THE UNBELIEVIN WORLD. Now please note: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21) Indeed Revelation 7 calls it "The Great Tribulation" stated in the Greek as "the Tribulation, the Great".

Sticking with Clement we can also look at both sets of writing, the Bible and Clement's writings, and see that the New Testament writers did not do what the post-apostolic fathers quickly did. Around the turn of the first century AD, Clement appears to have ascribed to the church the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant in his Epistle to the Corinthians:

"Let us then draw near to Him with holiness of spirit, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us partakers in the blessings of His elect. For thus it is written, When the Most High divided the nations, when He scattered the sons of Adam, He fixed the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. His people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, and Israel the lot of His inheritance. And in another place [the Scripture] saith, Behold, the Lord taketh unto Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man takes the first-fruits of his threshing-floor; and from that nation shall come forth the Most Holy. Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness,. . . . (Clement, "Epistle to the Corinthians" in A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers [CD-ROM] (Albany, OR: Sage Software, 1996), 34. )

Mealy-mouthed hogwash! Very imprecise and confusing.

Irenaeus in Against Heresies 5:29 wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

That sounds awfully pre-trib to me, given that the math in Revelation simply isn't on your side of things, because with 2 Billion dying in the first half, and another 2 Billion dying in the second half, we see that the greater measure of wrath poured out in the second half will have no greater effect upon the death rate of the people on the earth than the first half.

Nope. Those men don't seem to align with the pre-wrath view.

MM

The idea that the "last trump" is the seventh angel sounding his trumpet, that too is a concocted parallel that simply doesn't work, and here's why this Steven Andersonite doctrine doesn't work:

The popular go-to for him and his followers is this verse -

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When we read about the same event in another set of passages, things begin to shape up more clearly:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wait a minute...that "last trump" is now said to be the "trump of God," not the seventh angel.

Hmmmm....

Oops, and there's even more:

Revelation 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, the Lord at that time, at the trump of the seventh angel, was still on His Throne with that blast from the seventh angel causing the Church, who was already in Heaven, to worship the Lord, not being raptured at the blast of the seventh angel. At a totally different time long before this seventh angel's trump blast, at the rapture, the Church is on the earth being caught up to the meet the Lord and the dead in Christ in the air, not already in Heaven, with the Church worshipping the Lord. That event is not at all mentioned in the narrative coverage of the seventh angel's blast on that seventh trumpet.

Well, this is what happens when false doctrines meet their end in the midst of what's actually stated in scripture.

MM

What it shows so clearly brother is that tribulation does not come from God, it is just as you say, persecution, imprisonment, martyrdom.

YOU are saying that God's wrath poured upon the tribulators is the tribulation. I'm making that distinction. We are saved from God's wrath but not from tribulation.

I fully agree with your statement to N6. Good stuff, brother.

With the Bible as our guide (rather the external writings of men who happened to live closer to the time of the apostles than ourselves), the Lord Himself shows to us what is from Him, and what is not from Him is from men.

The opening of those seals to release the four horsemen, the colors of which just so happen to coincide with the flag colors of all the Islamic nations, and the resulting death of about 2 Billion people across the earth, and then another approximate 2 Billion dying in the latter half of the tribulation, that is indeed ALL the wrath of God, although the latter is the greater wrath, and yet still doesn't kill any more people than the four horsemen at the beginning...that is, dare we let the scriptures speak for themselves rather than all the additives some out there seem to think themselves qualified to pour into the Bible of their own beliefs.

MM

Some say that the Church is only appointed to go through the lesser wrath He releases upon the earth, and delivered before the greater wrath.

So to those who subscribe to that, it's a matter of measure. I can't find where the Lord drew that imaginary line anywhere that the measure of His wrath upon the people on the face of planet Earth is the proper line of demarcation for the deliverance, salvation, or whatever you want to call it; otherwise known as the rapture (harpadzo).

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Nothing in that verse, or any other I've seen thus far, in relation to any deliverance, shows to us that the greater measure of His wrath is the point of salvation, or deliverance into the Kingdom to follow the "wrath."

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says about the Greek word translated "salvation" in this verse says this as the definition:

"c. future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God: Romans 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "

Some have tried to say that it refers to the salvation through Christ's Blood, even though the context doesn't at all support that. If Paul did not already understand that the "us" in that verse is people who are already saved, then he really was one confused dude, but he was not.

With about 2 Billion dying in the first half, and another 2 Billion dying in the second half, it's ALL the wrath of God upon ALL those who remain on the earth until death or deliverance at the very end.

MM

If you're having a hard time reconciling these three Scriptures as the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, then we will go over it.


The First Two Scriptures

As you have mentioned, the first two Scriptures can easily be seen as the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

They line up with each other. So this wasn't a problem.

I don't why it bothers you that the last trumpet can also be called the trumpet call of God. You have seen God the Father, the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Israel called by many other names, why not the seventh trumpet as well? That's just one of the ways a person or thing is described in the Bible, by giving them different names to give the reader a more detailed description of the subject in question. So now we know that this seventh trumpet is the last trumpet and is the trumpet call of God (as opposed to a signal authorized by someone else).

This leads to the third Scripture. The one that gave you the most trouble reconciling as the seventh trumpet which is also the last trumpet.


The Third Scripture

The Seventh Trumpet
Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.


First of all, we should note that all three scriptures describe the same seventh trumpet which is also the last trumpet. But each scripture describes it from a different view.

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Describes the seventh trumpet from the view of the believer, what happens to us when that trumpet is sounded.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Describes the seventh trumpet from the view of the Lord Jesus and His role when that trumpet is sounded.
• Revelation 11:15-19 Describes the seventh trumpet from the view of God the Father and Heaven when that trumpet is sounded.

From what you've written, you assume that the pre-tribbers will be the only ones in Heaven and this is why there is celebration going on immediately.

What you fail to see is that when the seventh trumpet sounds and we are all gathered and transformed, it is instantaneous - as have been pointed out in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - "in a flash...." So the gathering and transformation into imperishable bodies is one and done in a flash. The rapture doesn't take all that long like you make it sound! So EVERYONE who belongs to God gets to celebrate Him


Seventh Trumpet Not the same as the Last Trumpet?

A lot of pre-tribbers think that seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are not the same. But you have to read Revelation 11:15 in context with the rest of the book of Revelation. The context for 11:15 actually starts in Revelation 8.

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
...

Revelation 8:6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Revelation 8 The first four angels sound their trumpets.
Revelation 9 The fifth and sixth angels sound their trumpets.
Revelation 10 Set up for the seventh trumpet.
Revelation 11 The seventh angel sounds his trumpet, the last trumpet.

If you read Revelation 12-22, trumpets of any kind are no longer mentioned. So the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 is truly the same last trumpet of the previous two scriptures. They are one and the same.


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Just for clarification, are you defining the great tribulation as the lesser wrath and that the Wrath of God is the greater wrath?

Why do you think the great tribulation is called a tribulation and not wrath? Because it ISN'T a wrath of God. It is a tribulation - THE Great Tribulation - instigated by Satan.


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I believe you may have MISread Musicmaster.




I don't believe he was making that point (in your quote at top ^ ), if I'm not mistaken,... re: 1Th4:16 and 1Cor15:51.

The phrase "the GREAT tribulation" refers only to the SECOND HALF of the seven year period (what follows on from the AOD at the MID-point).

Many folks mistakenly label the ENTIRE 7-yr period "great tribulation"... but that is a misnomer.




[so, no... this couldn't have been what Musicmaster had been conveying, that you have mis-read in his post/s]

He wrote:

It seems to bother him that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 calls the seventh trumpet the trumpet call of God as if it's God sounding the trumpet and not the seventh angel. It's called the trumpet call of God because it was authorized by God to be sounded, not that God sound the trumpet Himself. The seventh angel still sounded it.

Oftentimes in the Bible, a person or thing is given other names than its original to further describe it. In the case of trumpet call of God, it just means the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, is authorized by God and not someone else.


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All he referred to was the "lesser wrath". That's why I asked if he thinks the lesser wrath is the great tribulation and Wrath of God is the "greater wrath".

If that IS what he thinks, then no, the lesser wrath is not the great tribulation. Wrath is instigated by God. Tribulation is instigated by Satan. That's why the great tribulation is not a wrath of God. It is a tribulation by Satan - a massive one that will affect all Christians living on earth at that time.


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The thing is, the dead rises first before those who are alive at the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, the trumpet call of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So the rapture will occur at the last trumpet, which is also when Jesus returns for the second time, after the great tribulation, not before.


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It's such a Biblical injustice how you are using 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
When Paul wrote this he was ALIVE but the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was coming.
Do you know how Paul DIED?
At the hands of WRATH.

This verse simply means the Wrath to Come is Eternal Damnation.

And like most who preach deception of this verse, you have used it for your views in Tribulation related to the Rapture.

Well done in showing your true hand.

As a natural born Jew this should be an easy one for you because you would have known this in Mikra and if smart enough Mishnah.

Devarim 32:
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the YHVH's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

Clement is using the Torah but it has no relationship to the Tribulation.

Are you trying to connect this to Revelation?

And if so, look what happened to YHVH's Portion (Jacob/Israel) for the sake of the Gentiles:
8
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Church is indeed caught after the LAST CONTEST of Righteous.
He said it perfectly.
In the END... and then explains what the end is.............Tribulation, which is the LAST CONTEST of Righteous.