There will be no Rapture!!!

Revelation 3:3 makes it clear that those who are watching and have prayed to be accounted worthy to escape the things to come, they will not only NOT experience the "thief in the night" aspect of His coming for us, but they will also know the hour of His coming.

After all, the virgins were out there waiting the VERY NIGHT of His coming. They didn't camp out there night after night, hoping to hit on the right one.

The five virgins left in outer darkness were still virgins (pure), and yet not allowed in because of their lack or preparation, and the Lord gives to us what is necessary for that preparation. Those who do not obey, they will be here in the darkness of the tribulation. THAT is what seems to be what scripture screams out to us.

Those who WANT to be here for that darkness, go for it.

MM

All bible believers are dispensationalists to one degree or another, just saying. If you're not out building an ark or sacrificing an animal you understand the divisions that are in scripture. The main division we must see is between God's physical people Israel, and God's spiritual people the body of Christ.

I don't recall the Bible ever saying that we can know the hour or even the day, but we can know the season. I posted about that in a previous post.

In regard to escape, Jesus said:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

God isn't going to take us out but He will make us strong so that we don't cave and fall away. He will help us stay loyal to Him in the face of persecution and death. That is what brings Him glory and unbelievers will be drawn to God because of that.

So build up your faith to endure to the end. That's what it means to be the 5 wise virgins who have oil for their lamps because the oil is the Holy Spirit at work in us to endure to the end.

Also, since there is no pre-trib rapture, you don't really have any option to get raptured early while others get raptured later. If you're still young enough to be alive at that time, you WILL go through the great tribulation. We ALL will, whether we believe in it or not.


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Properly understood pretrib premillenialism is not some sort of "fantasy escapism." I realize some pretrib people may display it this way, but that is not a majority position.

I personally think that the battle of Ezekiel 38,39 may likely happen before the Rapture. It is quite likely that the United States may cease to exist as a nation, and we may find ourselves in extensive persecution before the Rapture comes. The idea that the godliness of the United States will cause us to be raptured out before difficulties might come has no Biblical substantiation.

From what I'm reading the war/battle of Psalm 83 might happen first because the enemies fighting in that war are the enemy countries bordering Israel. If they're taken out and Israel wins then Israel can be lulled into a false sense of “peaceful and unsuspecting” safety and not having walls. This would set it up for the Ezekiel 38 war/battle which comprises the other enemy countries that don't border Israel.

I know the US will no longer be a world power. I just don't know how it will happen. But our current government is doing what it can to make it weaker. I notice that it fully cooperates with the EU across the pond. If the US doesn't get destroyed, our weak government will probably hand the nation over to the antichrist to align us with him and we won't be able to oppose that.


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If you would care to see it for yourself, then you can read it and then share with me why you don't see that in the language as written.



Well, what He stated to them at that time is indeed a true representation of His request to the Father. When violating the rules of hermeneutics by transplanting something said in relation to a request at the time it was spoken, and the audience it was encompassing, and then assuming upon it the entire span of time across history to our time, the text simply doesn't support that process of broad brush strokes. If Jesus intended for the application to be with such a broad brush stroke across all of time, then He was mistaken when telling the disciples He would come for us to take us to the place He has prepared. That would make Him a liar by way of inconsistent addressing of what it to come.

The Lord MUST take us out, because if He didn't, that would again make Him a liar. It is promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. It's also stated that the man of sin will be given the power to overcome the saints (not the Church since the Church is no longer upon the earth) in the middle of the tribulation period.

I for one see the Lord as always being consistent, and therefore never contradicting Himself.

But, hey, if you want to be here through the tribulation, then that's your choice to make. I doubt your prayers are along that line of request, but your eschatological take is based on a hermeneutic that seems to rely more upon allegory than literal. With allegory, one can make the scriptures say whatever they want.

MM

Yes Selah
2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?

These same people distort the scriptures to say things to please their own teaching.

They have no idea of the truth!

Many seem to prefer missing the obvious in the language used in describing the portraiture of prophecy.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Dare one read this carefully, it betrays some things that cannot be denied:

* Those who are NOT watching, His coming for us will be as a thief in the night AND they will not know the hour of His coming.

Conversely:

* Those who ARE watching will not be caught by the event as it being a thief in the night AND they will know the hour of His coming when He so reveals it.

So, please keep in mind the Lord inspired it to be written that those who are NOT watching will experience the thief in the night coming AND not know the hour of His coming.

Many have chosen denial of this through the years, and that's ok. That's entirely on them. What's worse is intentional, intellectual dishonesty when they inject all manner of other junk into the text that simply isn't there either by implication or in the original languages.

MM

Gates don't attack anyone. They keep people in.
To paraphrase the scripture: Even the authority of Hell is not mightier than Christ's.

The church will be here.

Ironically, what rapture people preach is that the gates of Hell WILL prevail against the saints. Instead, in the culmination of God's plan, His people will prevail against the evil one. Just as it is written:

"To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory."

Furthermore, He has given to the church the responsibility of demonstrating God's wisdom to the principalities and powers in heavenly places. We will judge angels.

In Him we are Christ, His flesh and His bones. Christ will not retreat from the enemy. He has no fear of the thing He created. Now, I completely understand why much of the church wants an early exit. If they are given one it will be a shameful thing because of their lack of preparation.

Okay, we will go through it:

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

So I don't see anywhere in those verses that we can actually know the specific hour.



It is more that you don't understand what God meant when He keeps a person from the hour of trial.

In Revelation 3:10, about keeping us, it doesn't say they will be taken out of the world, just from the hour of trial. Meaning we won't fall away. God will keep us through persecution.

If you read the history of the Philadelphia church you will read that they were NEVER physically taken out of that place. In 156 AD it was reported that eleven Philadelphia Christians were martyred along with Polycarp. There was also general persecution against Christians by the Roman Empire at that time so the church at Philadelphia was also targeted. So, being kept from the hour of trial doesn't mean escape from persecution and death, but about God keeping you saved through it.

I want to point out Polycarp's own execution. It is the perfect example God keeping His children faithful to Him even unto death. Polycarp's last testimony before he was burned at the stake and pierced with a spear:

"How then can I blaspheme my King and Savior? You threaten me with a fire that burns for a season, and after a little while is quenched; but you are ignorant of the fire of everlasting punishment that is prepared for the wicked."

So this is a great encouragement! Polycarp remained steadfast and strong in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is how God keeps us through the hour of trail.



God never contradicted Himself, you just didn't understand what He meant.

As to the man of sin, since there is no Pre-Trib rapture, for those who haven't died by that time, we will ALL go through the great tribulation. So think about that - we were actually mentioned in the Bible! WE are those saints that the man of sin is given authority to overcome.

This is why it is SO important to build up your faith in Christ to endure and know He will keep you from falling away, from the hour of trial that is to test the entire world. So this hour of trial isn't just for Christians, Unbelievers too, but we have the advantage of standing strong with God's help.



Since there is no pre-trib rapture, there is no being "left behind." I'm sorry but you just don't have that option.


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Glad you pointed out that gates represent a defensive posture. Hard to win on from your heels. Those charging are pressing forward on the balls of their feet.

Indeed? That's an interesting application of subjective definition. (wink, wink) Given that the scriptures make use of a simile of an item, that can serve BOTH purposes, which is to keep people out and to keep others in. I don't see the term "prison gates" in that text, nor is it implied. Gates can also be a measure of strength as you pointed out. So, please keep in mind that simpletons out there may be duped by eisegetical application in hermeneutics, I am not one of them.

This, of course, spoken in the vacuum of any mention of the Church throughout Revelation chapters 5 through 21. No. I have very good reason to reject your conclusion since it is not erected upon solid premises.



This flies in the face of what's clearly declared in Revelation:

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The convenient practice of ascribing the terminology of saints as being the Church, even though the Church is mentioned copiously in the first three to four chapters, and then...silence. Oh, but some like to say that there's nothing indicative about that, which stretches the limits of credulity. The centrality and importance of the Church suddenly being an afterthought, applying only the term "saints" to the Church, that's just blindness applied to the implications.

But, hey, you say that you are still going to be here during the tribulation, and the Lord may very well honor that if He so chooses. That's on you, not me or anyone else. I'm not here to take away from you or anyone else what you want that is based upon what you believe.

MM

How is anyone deemed 'victorious' in battle if they have gone into retreat?

op: there will be no rapture?

With God's Word Of Truth, Right Divided, there will be a
pre-trib rapture, for The Body Of Christ ( not "15 minutes,"
but 18 months, of prayerful and Careful study! ):

+

There will also be Two mid-trib raptures, Neither for The Body of Christ,
who will already have been " Caught Up to heaven" for 3.5 years:

1) two witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 AV), And:

2) 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 KJV), and then "redeemed {raptured?}
from the earth, And found before The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 AV)

Amen.

The one problem with using this verse out of its context and the audience to whom it was spoken is that you're once again applying broad brush strokes of application, because Revelation 3:3 states that only those who are NOT watching will not know the hour of His coming.

What that tells us, then, is that your broad brush stroke application of that verse outside of its context and overall hermeneutical rules we should all be following, you're basically pitting one section of God's word against another, and therefore capitalizing on the one aspect by superimposing it over the other.

Please notice that the Lord did not say that He will keep us IN the hour of testing, but rather FROM. Dare we read the Greek from which this was translated, then we see how much more powerfully the original language lends to the removal rather than "keeping within."

Here is what the Thayer's Greek Lexicon has to say about that key word in the Greek as defined by its grammatical construct and its contextual application:

"Revelation 3:10. to keep: i. e. not to leave "

Now, I understand that some out there will transpose the language into meaning that the Lord is the One who will not leave, but dare we be honest with the text and its key definitions, His already placing Himself into the text as the One applying the action, and the Church being object of His action, "to not leave" clearly can only apply to the Church being the object not left in the situation described.

If you or others doubt that, then I recommend you talk with an actual Greek scholar rather than the many arm chair experts out there who have not done the homework necessary to learn the language and the idioms that remain hidden within the weaknesses of our English translations. I personally have had copious access to REAL Greek scholars from various universities, including Cambridge and Oxford.

Like I said before, I'm not here to take from you your right to remain here to enjoy the tribulation. If that's what you want, then go for it. Don't be a watchman, don't pray the prayer of Luke 21, and just keep inserting the Church into Revelation chapters 6 through 21, even though it's not there, otherwise known as eisegetical interpretation, and just take your chances. Please, never assume that I wish to take from you the pleasure of what you think is coming your way. I for one will escape with many others, and if you want to be here, then go for it and roll the dice.

My faith is in Christ and His promise to come back for us, exactly as He described to His disciples when He ascended. The angels standing beside the disciples promised that the Lord would return in LIKE MANNER for us, which was His showering us with blessings. In His Second Coming, He will be coming back in wrath, drenching His garment with the blood of His enemies. Those who can't see the glaring contrast in that...well, that's on them, not me or anyone else.

So, relegating the idea that belief in the pre-trib rapture somehow parallels a lack of trust only in Christ, that's just simply bereft of any substance. Revelation of ONLY about Christ, and His revealing to the unbelieving world, the unprepared saints, and the Jews. It serves no purpose for torturing the Church.

MM

By all means, stay here and try to fight that fight.

My perspective is that it is the Lord's battle, not mine, and so He will keep whom He chooses on this earth, and remove those whom He so wishes. I for one believe in His Sovereignty, which means He's not subject to my own beliefs about eschatology.

MM

Oh, I see. I doubt I can teach you anything then.

So you are not the body of the Lord?

Your position makes sense now.

True that. I cannot be taught by anyone I discern as using eisegetical hermeneutics. That's an outflow of allegorical application, which allows the teacher to inject whatever they want into their narrative rather than to follow along with the actual text for what it says.

Thanks for your thoughts.

MM

Slaughtering my words and statements is not an honest handling of what I actually have said. Jabs like this are falling on ears that have heard this kind of junky nonsense before, and so please save it for those who are not better equipped to fend off such.

I welcome discussion of points, but when it starts incorporating elements that straddle the line of ad hominem, that's when I tune you out.

MM