Do you believe that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

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Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

  • Yes, I do see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • No, I do not see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Total voters
    9
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#81
Mar 17, 2022
2,916
852
113
#81
PaulThomson said:
The 144,000 are Jews (Rev. 7) They are the first-fruits for God and the Lamb. (Rev. 14:4). James says the Jewish servants of God and the Lord Jesus Christ (1:1) of which James was one, (1:2) are the first-fruits brought forth by the word of truth (1:18), which Paul says in Col. 1:5 is the gospel. Hence the 144,000 are the faithful Jewish contingent of the church.

Rev. 6 ends at the last day, the day of God's wrath. Chapter 7 is a new vision starting back at the founding of the church, where God marks as under His protection 144,000 Jews of that time who were believers in YHWH and who YHWH was giving to Jesus, and who would believe in the Son and His message when they heard, because they already believed in the Father and His message. They had been taught of God and learned from Him.
The great multitude are the Gentile and Jewish believers in Christ throughout history since Pentecost, who were added to the 144,000 first century Jewish believers. The great multitude is from every nation, tribe, people and language. That includes Jews.
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I thought the, 'great multitude', were those that were from the great tribulation.

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#82
Nov 20, 2018
22,854
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#82
John146 said:
There are no Jews in the body of Christ.
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Tell us you are kidding.

Luk 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#83
Nov 20, 2018
22,854
8,328
113
#83
John146 said:
The term "twelve tribes" is never ever a reference to Christians or even Jewish Christians. It is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole. Context matters. Audience matters.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
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1) scattered abroad because of Christian persecution noted in Acts 7 no doubt.
2) they are clearly saved believing Jews originally from Israel and probably Jerusalem.
3) there is no reason to believe that these believers suddenly "lost their Jewishness" upon conversion. Quite the contrary.

Act 8:1
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Jas 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#84
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#84
cv5 said:
Tell us you are kidding.

Luk 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Former Jews and Greeks, yes, but not anymore.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#85
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#85
cv5 said:
1) scattered abroad because of Christian persecution noted in Acts 7 no doubt.
2) they are clearly saved believing Jews originally from Israel and probably Jerusalem.
3) there is no reason to believe that these believers suddenly "lost their Jewishness" upon conversion. Quite the contrary.

Act 8:1
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Jas 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Click to expand...
You are equating the term "twelve tribes" with the church?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#86
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#86
cv5 said:
1) scattered abroad because of Christian persecution noted in Acts 7 no doubt.
2) they are clearly saved believing Jews originally from Israel and probably Jerusalem.
3) there is no reason to believe that these believers suddenly "lost their Jewishness" upon conversion. Quite the contrary.

Act 8:1
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Jas 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Click to expand...
Are these the same people to whom James is writing? Those that were scattered abroad?

Acts 8:
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

versus

James 4:
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#88
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#88
cv5 said:
Of course not. Nobody in their right mind would want to.
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The twelve tribes is the audience of the book of James. Why take something that was meant for a certain audience and apply it doctrinally to a difference audience? That's not proper study. That's not rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#89
Nov 20, 2018
22,854
8,328
113
#89
John146 said:
The twelve tribes is the audience of the book of James. Why take something that was meant for a certain audience and apply it doctrinally to a difference audience? That's not proper study. That's not rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Come on man. You are up the creek without a paddle on this one.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#90
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#90
cv5 said:
Come on man. You are up the creek without a paddle on this one.
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Are you building an ark? Why not? Because you understand that God was speaking to Noah. We must consider the entire bible according to audience. There are divisions to be made, and way more than just OT and NT.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#91
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#91
cv5 said:
Come on man. You are up the creek without a paddle on this one.
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To whom is James 4 written? The same group we read about preaching the word in Acts 8? Come one now, let the word be honest.

James 4:
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#92
Nov 20, 2018
22,854
8,328
113
#92
John146 said:
The twelve tribes is the audience of the book of James. Why take something that was meant for a certain audience and apply it doctrinally to a difference audience? That's not proper study. That's not rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Is the God-man Jesus Christ an Israelite of the tribe of David? Yes.
Consequently, will Jesus Christ be a Jew forever? Definitely.

Furthermore, so will Elijah and Moses when they are resurrected.
They do not suddenly not become Jews. Or suddenly become gentiles.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#93
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
#93
cv5 said:
Is the God-man Jesus Christ an Israelite of the tribe of David? Yes.
Consequently, will Jesus Christ be a Jew forever? Definitely.

Furthermore, so will Elijah and Moses when they are resurrected.
They do not suddenly not become Jews. Or suddenly become gentiles.
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There are three audiences in the bible: Jew, Gentile, and Church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
 
M

MerSee

Active member
#94
Jan 13, 2024
796
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#94
John146 said:
There are three audiences in the bible: Jew, Gentile, and Church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
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Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#95
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#95
John146 said:
There are three audiences in the bible: Jew, Gentile, and Church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
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And the church of God is God-believing Jews and God-believing Gentiles.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

Active member
#96
Dec 20, 2023
404
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Texas
#96
Cameron143 said:
Works are evidence of faith, but they do not produce faith. In fact, the opposite is true...Ephesians 2:8-10. But works are a very unreliable evidence of faith, as any outward behavior can be imitated void of its inward reality. This is why Jesus said you will know them by their fruit, and not by their works. It is impossible to parrot the fruit of the Spirit. It is either present or not.
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I agree with the view of Good works being a fruit of the faith.

So therefore, do you believe that the exact same work could be both a good work (pleasing to God) or a bad work (pleasing to man). Take, for example, “feeding the hungry”.

If it is done in any way other than to show your love for God and your neighbor, then it is not a Good Work. But if it is done as a fruit of the faith, then it is most pleasing to God!
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#97
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#97
PaulThomson said:
And the church of God is God-believing Jews and God-believing Gentiles.
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Agreed, which are never called the twelve tribes. I am not part of the twelve tribes, but the church of God.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#98
Mar 1, 2022
19,028
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#98
BillyBob said:
I agree with the view of Good works being a fruit of the faith.

So therefore, do you believe that the exact same work could be both a good work (pleasing to God) or a bad work (pleasing to man). Take, for example, “feeding the hungry”.

If it is done in any way other than to show your love for God and your neighbor, then it is not a Good Work. But if it is done as a fruit of the faith, then it is most pleasing to God!
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Yeah, that's a problem with works...there is no way to gauge internal motivation.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#99
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
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#99
John146 said:
Agreed, which are never called the twelve tribes. I am not part of the twelve tribes, but the church of God.
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Some of the twelve tribes are in the church, some are not. Some of the Gentiles are in the church, some are not. All those Jews and Gentiles that believe God are in the church.
 
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