Predestination is misunderstood...

It's funny how Calvin's quotes many times do not align to the doctrine so many claim to be his.

depends if you realise the tulip doctrine was designed to see who needs peace,

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And also depends how you interpret what Calvin is saying.

Let me put things a different way.


USING vs PROOVING

1. When we're talking about foregone conclusions here (in this conversation) we're talking about our views for or against Calvinism.

2. What you just explained to me, is how you can "USE" your foregone conclusion.

3. That's fine, but this thread is not about how to USE our foregone conclusions.... but how to PROVE them.

4. There is a difference between USING (applying) our doctrinal views, and PROVING our doctrinal views are correct.

5. You can certainly "use" your foregone conclusion in Luke 18:13 with those who are agreeable: but we weren't talking about how to USE our foregone conclusions, we were talking about how to PROVE our foregone conclusions.

6. I was simply pointing out that Luke 18:13 is not a passage that makes any statements about free will or determinism... it simply gives no data on this topic, and so it cannot be used as PROOF for either point of view.

(The passage talks about a man having sorrow for sin and calling to God for forgiveness... but it does not come out and tell the mechanics of how he came into this state, and whether or not he was able to invoke any free will. That data is not given to us in this passage. Because it gives no data on our topic, it cannot be used as a proof for our topic.)

7. This thread isn't about USING our foregone conclusions, but PROVING them, and Luke 18:13 simply doesn't offer any data for PROVING either point of view.

8. There are lots of passages commonly used by either side, that give them data points from which to construct proofs... this passage just doesn't seem to be one of those passages that can act as a proof.



God Bless.

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Yes, but they had believed on Jesus Christ before receiving the Holy Spirit.

And also depends how you interpret what Calvin is saying.

And also depends how you interpret what Calvin is saying.

you'll be a true calvin soon 😊

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Not everything Calvin said is wrong
And not everything he said is true

This is the issue that floors me.
Here Calvin is warning about being prideful but many of the Reformed posters exude Pride to the maximum.

This is also depends on whether you realise what Calvin said about wrong is true 😊

That's because Calvin knows they hadn't realised this View attachment 262926

Most of his quotes are isolated and not attached to scripture. But it's pretty easy to verify if they align up or not.

One cannot disagree with that quote unless they're in denial.

One cannot disagree with that quote unless they're in denial.

But not before they were regenerated or born of God. Jn 1:11-14

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Are you claiming they were regenerated and born again without the Holy Spirit?