Predestination is misunderstood...

Agree.

If we're talking about the tax collector in Luke 18:13, I think the implication is that by acknowledging his sin, and asking forgiveness of the one true God, he was engaging in an act of submission to God.

Genuine repentance is inherently an act of submission.


HOWEVER, I don't think this passage has anything to do with a Calvinism debate.
It simply fails to clearly support either side.
Either side can claim the passage supports their view, and there is just nothing in the passage to show us what caused his repentance.... it doesn't address this issue.
I can't see that it's a relevant passage for a debate on Calvinism.... for either side.

Either side can say he repented "due to this or that"... but it simply isn't in the text.
.
.

I can't make any sense of this, you say we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons and all this applies to unbelievers. So now unbelievers are the predestined to be the Holy sons of God. This is beggars belief, it's not found anywhere in the bible.

My bible tells me that those predestined elect holy sons of God, are given everything required for salvation as a gift. god freely draws them to Himself, then He freely regenerates, them, then He freely gives them the gift of faith/belief, then he gives them the gift of repentance, the He gives them the free gift of sanctification, then He gives them the free gift of perseverance, then He gives them the free gift of salvation, then He gives them the free gift of transformation into the image of His Son.

You need to show me, which stage of the process of salvations wasn't predestined before the world began, and why those names in Gods book of life were written before the foundation of the world.

Which part of salvation does man chose or wok to bring about, you can't simplify it and say "I'm saved, because I choose to believe", the choice was never yours and neither was any other part of the work of salvation. It is all of God and nothing of man so we can boast about how smart we are and deny God His glory.

Its not spamming, its the Truth,

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth. Sorry

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

My bible tells me that God elected to save His children before He made the world. Maybe you reject those things God said, which don't line up with your view. This is called cherry picking the bible, to create a false doctrine.

what's wrong with God meating you half way charlie

Precisely, only the elect can choose to believe the gospel. Those God has chosen to leave in their sin are sealed for destruction, they can only chose to reject the gospel as they have no other option.

It's wrong because God said so. He said He will not share His glory with anyone. If you think you can fool God and steal half His glory, you've got another thing coming Brother

I merely connected the dots, and found the contradiction in what you stated about faith. One the one hand you claim the faith is not a work, and I agree with that because the bibles teaches that faith is a gift from God. so you can't claim you employed your faith in order to obey the gospel message and be saved.
If Gods word is to be believed, then you never had faith but it was gifted to you without you asking for it to later use, to effect your salvation. The bible says that salvation is of the Lord, and not by anything man does lest he boast.

If you haven't freely received salvation, without adding any of your own faith or will or any other kind of effort than it was received freely and you have something to boast about.

He chose us how? "In" Him.
Not, for Him. Not, by Him.

Its an odd way of saying something...
For it means something many keep on missing to see.

Where was Eve's body before Adam was given his helpmate? Her body was "in" Adam.
And, the Bride of Christ?
We are going to become Bone of His everlasting bones, and Glorious flesh of His Glorious flesh.
We are right now "in" Him. In Christ!

Ephesians 1:4-6 means?
The people in the Body of Christ - the Church - was chosen before the Foundation of the world to be the Church!

Moses was not chosen before the foundation of the world to be found IN Christ when he believed. Nor was David...
Or any OT believer for that matter.





God chose out of all He knew would believe to be in Him.. Us, to be the Church! The Body of Christ!
To do so?

God predestined us to be living during the Church age when it came time for us to believe.

That's our predestination.......

In Christ, GeneZ

YOU KEEP MEDDLING! Keep away!

I can't make any sense of this, you say we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons and all this applies to unbelievers

God predestined believers. The doctrine only applies to believers ergo,

What about this road where the lord met someone half way



The Damascus Road: Saul Converted
9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Acts 9

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Your right, based on foreknowledge, based on his good will.

The problem is, God doesn't do this anymore. There have never been any Apostles or people who received the gifts they did, in the past 2000 years. Since the Lord ascended to heaven no man has ever has any special powers given to them as those in the Lords time were given.

All we have is the same old bible to instruct us and no special power or gifts. We have to make do with the Bible and simply trust and obey. No man was ever given the power to heal people or perform and miracles like the Apostles and Paul and some other in the old testament. All of that stopped when the Lord ascended to heaven and we've never seen any of it since.

So we can't use them as examples of how we can change, because nobody has changed like that in 2000 years.

Well Charlie that would be limiting God.

Well Charlie that would be limiting God.

which is why Your god can not be called a God of love.. A god of love would never do this

The problem is that one is saying what God doesn't do, and no scripture to back it up.

Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.