Revelation: A Cyclical View

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

Chaps

Active member
#1
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#1
Revelation is one of my favorite books in the Bible. When I was younger, I was frustrated by how seemingly confusing, scary and strange the book seemed. Over the years, I have heard sermons on the book, but usually those messages focus on the first few chapters (letters to the churches) while avoiding the more intriguing and confusing portions of the book. I would think to myself, “Doesn’t God want us to understand this book? Why would he include it in the Scriptures if it were so confusing and utilized by so many to stir up fear, slander opponents and result in continual false predictions about end time events and bad actors in the world?“ So, with that in mind, I have done a great deal of reading and studying on the book from various points of view. For the sake of making things simple to read, I have provided a brief outline of the book with a few comments that I feel makes the book incredibly encouraging and easy to understand. Thanks for taking the time to read and I am interested in comments from you all.

A Cyclical View
There are various ways of reading the book of Revelation. The Preterist View suggests the book, much like the OT prophets predicting a major catastrophe as a judgment by God, refers to events that are in the past (specifically 70AD). This view suggests the book is primarily referring to God’s judgment of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD where the Romans assaulted Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. The futurist view (perhaps most popular today) suggests that most of Revelation is all future predictions about various nations, governments and wars just prior to the Second Coming. The Historicist View suggests that the book of Revelation occurs chronologically throughout history. As they read the book, they associate various images as tracking chronologically throughout history from the first century AD throughout the early Christianity to the Middle Ages, Modern Age and so forth until the Second Coming.
The Cyclical View, that I accept, sees the book of Revelation as a series of repetitive visions that highlight different themes that help Christians of all ages to understand Spiritual actors behind the scenes, their goals, the chaos they create on earth and how Christians are supposed to resist and endure these temptations and pressures. Hopefully, as I provide an outline for the book, you will see why I think it is evident that the book is cyclical and a chronological or futuristic framework for the book simply does not properly fit.

Revelation 1-3: The Seven Churches
Letters to first century churches that address specific temptations and pressures Christians were facing from various angles such as persecution, heresy, false teachers, seduction, economic pressures and apathy. Jesus calls faithful Christians to fight against these attacks on the truth and remain faithful even to death. The following chapters “reveal” why Christians face such pressures and the importance of seeing these attacks for what they are.

Revelation 4-7: The Seven Seals
This vision begins with the resurrection of Jesus entering the throne room of God as the victorious Lion of Judah who is also the lamb who was slain. All of creation bows down to worship him and as a result of Christ’s victory, he begins to unlock the purposes and plans of God (opening the scroll) by breaking the seven seals on the scroll. Each seal represents a both physical and spiritual judgments of God on the world unleashing various forms of suffering on an unbelieving world. Christians are called to suffer “a little while longer” (Rev. 6:13). The vision concludes with the 144,000 (12x12x10x10x10) representing every faithful person from every tribe sealed by God, saving them from the hostile world and God wiping every tear from their eyes (Rev. 7:15-17).

To be continued…
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#2
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#2
Revelation 8-11: The Seven Trumpets
The silence in heaven marks the judgment of God and a transition to a different vision. Note, that while these visions are cyclical, they are increasing in their intensity and focus on different elements of the significance of Christ’s victory and how it impacts the world. The seven trumpets indicate a period of war in which heavenly forces are cast down that create havoc on earth. Like the physical plagues of judgment seen in the OT, Christ’s victory results in heavenly bodies cast down that create spiritual locust plagues resulting in spiritual and mental torment that afflicts an unbelieving world. The purpose of this spiritual and physical torment is to cause unbelievers to repent before it’s too late. However, people “did not repent of the works of their hands not give up worshiping demons…nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.” God is seen permitting and even allowing human physical and spiritual suffering to enhance as a means to bring people to repentance, yet their wickedness is so great, they refuse to turn away from the evil plaguing the world. Two witnesses arise on the earth to call people to repentance (in the OT, the testimony of “two or three witnesses” represented a valid testimony). In spite of the valid testimony of believers and the faithful, the world continues to embrace evil and kill the faithful As they did in the days of Sodom and Egypt. The vision concludes with the blowing of the seventh trumpet, the proclamation that “the kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever“ (Rev. 11:15). Heaven is opened, God’s presence (ark) is revealed in the temple.

Revelation 12-14: The Woman and the Dragon
This vision goes back before the resurrection that marks the beginning of the previous two visions. This vision goes back to the birth of Christ and the efforts of Satan to destroy Jesus (Rev. 12:1-6). Satan is unsuccessful and Jesus is “caught up to God and his throne” (vs. 5). The result of Christ’s victory (as seen in the previous visions) is judgment whereby Satan and his angels are cast down on earth. The result is Satan’s knowledge of his defeat and his wrath being unleashed on the earth as Satan “went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” (12:17)

To be continued…
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#3
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#3
The vision of the woman and the dragon ends with the two-fold judgment of God. The devil and the wicked who have the mark of the beast drink the wine of God’s wrath whereas the faithful rest from their labors and their deeds follow them. The earth is harvested and the grapes of God’s wrath are trampled while the faithful (again 144,000) sing a new song to the Lamb and are redeemed by God.

Revelation 15-19: The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
This vision closely resembles God’s judgment on Egypt. Just as God delivered his people through fierce judgment on Egypt in the OT, God will deliver his faithful from the world through various plagues and judgments on the world for their wickedness and unbelief. This vision also ties in God‘s deliverance of Israel from Babylon in the OT to God’s deliverance of believers from a world and its powers and governments that oppress and persecute the faithful. Those who align themselves with the world are judged with various sufferings and torments (both physical and spiritual) because of their allegiance to corrupt governments (beast), religions (false prophet) and the seduced so-called people of God who align themselves with wickedness for the luxuries provided to them in Babylon (the prostitute). The wicked refuse to repent in spite of God’s judgments. Those who compromised or rejected the truth by trusting in the powers of the world and its its provision and luxuries will see their security undone in a single day (the Second Coming) just as the great city of Babylon that was boasted as invincible was overthrown in a single day in God’s judgment through the Medes and Persians in the OT. The vision concludes with rejoicing in heaven the eternal burning of Babylon and the marriage supper of the Lamb where the faithful feast with God whereas the wicked are feasted upon by the birds of the air by the judgement of Jesus as he returns on a white horse of judgment.

Revelation 20-22: The Millennium
THe final vision portrays that while Satan is unleashed on the earth due to the victory of Jesus, he is “bound” and his power is limited. He is no longer able to ”deceive the nations” any longer due to the preaching of the Gospel. During this millennium, those who do not worship “the beast or its image and had not received its marked on their foreheads or their hands (Rev. 20:4) are raise to life (Christian rebirth and salvation). John declares this to be the “first resurrection” as believers are “raised with Christ” at salvation. John declares that those who partake in this first resurrection have no fear of the second death (hell) but will be priests with God and of Christ and will reign with him. Indeed, Paul also declares that Christians are “seated above“ with Christ in heavenly places as victors over the devil. After the millenium (Church Age) has ended, Satan is released and leads the world into deception and persecution of God’s people. During this time of unprecedented persecution and evil, it appears as through the faithful remnant will be wiped out. However, God sends fire from heaven (likened to God’s judgment on Baal and the false prophets) to destroy the wicked and torment them day and night forever. Then God unveils the book of life and judges the living and the dead. Those who took part in the first resurrection and have their names in the Lambs book of Life are saved whereas the rest are thrown into the lake of fire. The vision ends with a new heavens and new earth where God provides a heavenly city for his people and wipes every tear from their eye.

In sum, I think it is clear to see that the book is cyclical. We see Jesus ascend to heaven several times (and even born in chapter 11) and God’s judgment and salvation of the faithful several times in these visions. The visions focus on answering several questions that early Christians and even Christians today wrestle which can be summed up as: if Jesus is victorious and at the right hand of God, why do Christians still suffer? The answer is multi-faceted. Christians suffer with the world because the world is under God’s judgment. Christians also suffer because Satan is cast down and is making war with them. As a result, believers should remain faithful and understand that the world is being judged and Christians are undergoing a similar struggle as the faithful faced in the past (such as in Egypt, Babylon, etc.). Just as they remained faithful to the end, Christians should do likewise. The end result for the faithful will be salvation and celebration, so do not lose heart. The enemy will work to use governmental power, seduction, false teaching, and economic pressures to seek to make the faithful compromise the truth. However, the wise believers will know there is a dragon behind all these attacks and will not accept the mark of the beast and turn their focus to a worldly and carnal focus. They will remain focused on their Lord and Savior and will so be marked by the Holy Spirit. And ALL the faithful (denoted by the 144,000) will be accounted for, saved and receive the reward of their faithful endurance and perseverance. Let those who have ears to hear, hear. Even so, come Lord Jesus, come.

I hope this is a blessing to you, encourages you in your faith and understanding of this important book.
 
M

montana123

Banned
#4
Oct 9, 2021
881
291
63
#4
The book of Revelation would not be able to be understood until the end time, and like the book of Daniel, and when Jesus told the disciples that they shall see things, and hear things happening around the world He was addressing the Jews, and Christians in the future for the disciples would not be able to see those things, and know of them.

When Daniel was told about the end time he said he did not understand it but was told to go his way for the book is sealed until the time of the end which then they will understand it.

For many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology, which then the saints can see, hear, and know what is going on in the world, and how it is possible for them to come together as one with a different mode of operation for the world.

Now we can understand certain parts of the Bible.

And that different mode of operation is the new age movement which the New Age Christ, antichrist, will push the agenda of the new age movement which he will think to change times and laws, and things will change drastically.

Which the Bible warns us of the new age movement which they interpret the Bible according to the occult and evolution, and people are evolving to be spiritual, and a god, and Jesus evolved to be an ascended master, and there is no personal God, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher.

Which the time will come people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible, but according to the new age movement.

Which the United Nations supports new age organizations, and is with them as well as Science.

Which they believe Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind intelligence, and will help mankind to have peace, advance, and evolve along with the New Age Christ which they talk about the return of the gods.

They do not believe Lucifer is a fallen angel for they do not believe in a God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power.

Science says humans are not from the earth, and the world needs to prepare for an alien encounter.

Just like Science was saying things to debunk the Bible they are now saying things to make all things compatible with the new age movement.

They are saying they were wrong about this, and wrong about that, but with new discoveries they have a different perspective now concerning history, the universe, the conscious, the Bible, religions, God, Jesus, evolution, the origins of people.

They are going to align everything about life, people, and the universe, with the new age movement beliefs, and reality.

They will say the Bible is true, and want people to embrace it but they will give them a different perspective of it adding more credibility for what they say.

The Bible is the devil's enemy, and it is the most popular book in the world, so the devil is using a false interpretation of the Bible to fool the world.

For the Christians believe the Bible, and the religions believe the Bible but they interpret the Bible according to the religion, and the religion of Islam say that the Bible is true although they believe some of the Bible is written by man, and the Quran is the last book of the Bible.

God is ready to end sin on earth, and the new age movement is the beginning of the end for it will cause the world to rebel against God.

The 7 Churches is a prophetic statement to how the Church age will go in major influence at the time, and if any falsehood God always has people in the truth, which you can see the Roman Catholic Church in there the Synagogue of Satan for their foundation is paganism, and the occult, and then the Protestant movement, and then the Church of Philadelphia where Jesus did not have anything against them, and then the last Church age now with many hypocrites, and saying they are rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing the prosperity Gospel which can only happen at the end time for money is flowing a great deal more than in the past.

Which the Bible tells us of the last generation which they will devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men which can only happen at the time of technology which we see in America where the people scurry about trying to get all the money and material things they can get, and they can never have enough money, and many people who claim Christianity are jumping on board.

The 6th Church Jesus did not have anything against them, and said that He would deliver them from the temptation that shall come upon the whole earth to try them that dwell on earth.

So this Church could not of been in the first century for how can there be a temptation that shall come upon the whole earth at the same time, affecting all the people, and be the same temptation.

Which that temptation is when the world says Peace and safety for will the world follow the world, or turn to God, and will the people who claim Christianity stay with God, or follow the world which the Bible says some shall depart from the faith and follow the new age movement Christianity.

The 7 Churches is a prophetic statement to the history of the Church age.

The New Age Christ will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty, and then the world has 7 years left to go and God will end sin on earth.

Paul said the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of the Bible on a world wide scale all nations governments enforcing it, and the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

The first three and one half years salvation is available to the world so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth so the wrath of God is not there.

After the beast claims to be God then he has power to continue for three and one half years, and he has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, so the wrath of God is not there.

The antichrist shall make war against the saints and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and then put down all power, authority, and rule.

Since God is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and go against the truth then the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, and the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years for if they do not remain on earth then how did they go against the truth if the truth is not represented on earth by the saints.

The 7 trumpets is not the wrath of God which the 7 vials is the wrath of God which does not happen until after the 7 years period is over.

The 7 trumpets are warnings to the world to get right with God, but after the 6th trumpet the world does not repent of their sins, and does not turn to God, but keep trying to have peace by their own power, and going by their interpretation of reality, so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

An example is WW1, and WW2, did not turn to God but set up League of Nations, and United Nations, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet where they do not turn to God, but keep going by their ways, and reality.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#5
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#5
montana123 said:
The book of Revelation would not be able to be understood until the end time, and like the book of Daniel, and when Jesus told the disciples that they shall see things, and hear things happening around the world He was addressing the Jews, and Christians in the future for the disciples would not be able to see those things, and know of them.

When Daniel was told about the end time he said he did not understand it but was told to go his way for the book is sealed until the time of the end which then they will understand it.

For many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology, which then the saints can see, hear, and know what is going on in the world, and how it is possible for them to come together as one with a different mode of operation for the world.

Now we can understand certain parts of the Bible.

And that different mode of operation is the new age movement which the New Age Christ, antichrist, will push the agenda of the new age movement which he will think to change times and laws, and things will change drastically.

Which the Bible warns us of the new age movement which they interpret the Bible according to the occult and evolution, and people are evolving to be spiritual, and a god, and Jesus evolved to be an ascended master, and there is no personal God, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher.

Which the time will come people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible, but according to the new age movement.

Which the United Nations supports new age organizations, and is with them as well as Science.

Which they believe Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind intelligence, and will help mankind to have peace, advance, and evolve along with the New Age Christ which they talk about the return of the gods.

They do not believe Lucifer is a fallen angel for they do not believe in a God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power.

Science says humans are not from the earth, and the world needs to prepare for an alien encounter.

Just like Science was saying things to debunk the Bible they are now saying things to make all things compatible with the new age movement.

They are saying they were wrong about this, and wrong about that, but with new discoveries they have a different perspective now concerning history, the universe, the conscious, the Bible, religions, God, Jesus, evolution, the origins of people.

They are going to align everything about life, people, and the universe, with the new age movement beliefs, and reality.

They will say the Bible is true, and want people to embrace it but they will give them a different perspective of it adding more credibility for what they say.

The Bible is the devil's enemy, and it is the most popular book in the world, so the devil is using a false interpretation of the Bible to fool the world.

For the Christians believe the Bible, and the religions believe the Bible but they interpret the Bible according to the religion, and the religion of Islam say that the Bible is true although they believe some of the Bible is written by man, and the Quran is the last book of the Bible.

God is ready to end sin on earth, and the new age movement is the beginning of the end for it will cause the world to rebel against God.

The 7 Churches is a prophetic statement to how the Church age will go in major influence at the time, and if any falsehood God always has people in the truth, which you can see the Roman Catholic Church in there the Synagogue of Satan for their foundation is paganism, and the occult, and then the Protestant movement, and then the Church of Philadelphia where Jesus did not have anything against them, and then the last Church age now with many hypocrites, and saying they are rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing the prosperity Gospel which can only happen at the end time for money is flowing a great deal more than in the past.

Which the Bible tells us of the last generation which they will devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men which can only happen at the time of technology which we see in America where the people scurry about trying to get all the money and material things they can get, and they can never have enough money, and many people who claim Christianity are jumping on board.

The 6th Church Jesus did not have anything against them, and said that He would deliver them from the temptation that shall come upon the whole earth to try them that dwell on earth.

So this Church could not of been in the first century for how can there be a temptation that shall come upon the whole earth at the same time, affecting all the people, and be the same temptation.

Which that temptation is when the world says Peace and safety for will the world follow the world, or turn to God, and will the people who claim Christianity stay with God, or follow the world which the Bible says some shall depart from the faith and follow the new age movement Christianity.

The 7 Churches is a prophetic statement to the history of the Church age.

The New Age Christ will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty, and then the world has 7 years left to go and God will end sin on earth.

Paul said the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of the Bible on a world wide scale all nations governments enforcing it, and the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

The first three and one half years salvation is available to the world so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth so the wrath of God is not there.

After the beast claims to be God then he has power to continue for three and one half years, and he has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, so the wrath of God is not there.

The antichrist shall make war against the saints and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and then put down all power, authority, and rule.

Since God is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and go against the truth then the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, and the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years for if they do not remain on earth then how did they go against the truth if the truth is not represented on earth by the saints.

The 7 trumpets is not the wrath of God which the 7 vials is the wrath of God which does not happen until after the 7 years period is over.

The 7 trumpets are warnings to the world to get right with God, but after the 6th trumpet the world does not repent of their sins, and does not turn to God, but keep trying to have peace by their own power, and going by their interpretation of reality, so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

An example is WW1, and WW2, did not turn to God but set up League of Nations, and United Nations, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet where they do not turn to God, but keep going by their ways, and reality.
Click to expand...
You should be careful attributing your interpretation of what the Bible says with what the Bible actually says. You make a lot of statements but use no Bible passages to validate your claims. The Bible is authoritative, you are not. So, if you dont agree, that‘s totally fine. Id just appreciate if you use some Scripture to show where I am wrong rather than just stating as much. If you can show clearly where I am wrong in my interpretation, I’d be happy to revise my views. Just claiming something to be true doesn’t make it true.

I don’t know what you mean by, “people will evolve to be spiritual.” I dont know where the Bible says that. I agree that ”spirituality“ without Christ is hollow…and not spirituality at all. However, if this is a statement about my view on Revelation, I would caution you that “spiritual” realities are more real than physical ones. So we should not discount a spiritual understanding of some of the visions in Revelation as less real…if anything, I think it is more real and more significant.

Also, Daniel was told to “seal up” the message he had received. Revelation is all about breaking seals and John not to seal up God’s revealed plan. Thus, the “mystery” Daniel had received is no longer a mystery in Revelation. As Christians, we can clearly see God’s plan and the unfolding of that plan through the person and work of Jesus Christ. Revelation is not a Rubik’s cube to solve with a 21st century newspaper. It was written to be understood in John’s day as well as our day today.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#6
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,279
113
#6
Chaps said:
THe final vision portrays that while Satan is unleashed on the earth due to the victory of Jesus, he is “bound” and his power is limited. He is no longer able to ”deceive the nations” any longer due to the preaching of the Gospel.
Click to expand...
Nope. The chapter doesn't even mention the gospel. It clearly states satan is bound AND imprisoned in the pit, with a lock that is locked. That is what keeps him from deceiving the nations. He is also not "limited" in power. He is unable to use any power to deceive the nations. The being bound with the chain by an angel and locked in this pit/prison shows that he is incapable of doing what he likes to do and has to wait until he is free. The gospel is not involved in any of this.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#7
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#7
Chaps said:
The Cyclical View, that I accept, sees the book of Revelation as a series of repetitive visions that highlight different themes
Click to expand...
You could have included the Futurist View, which sees the prophecies in Revelation as being for a future period (which may not be too far away either). Also there is no reason for a Cyclical View whatsoever. All the prophecies are in chronological sequence, with only some things which are "parenthetical". At the same time everything must be taken in its plain literal sense, and even most of the symbols have been interpreted for us.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#8
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#8
Chaps said:
He is no longer able to ”deceive the nations” any longer due to the preaching of the Gospel.
Click to expand...
If you are speaking about the present time, that is incorrect. While the Gospel is being preached on the one hand, Satan is extremely active in deceiving the world. He even manages to deceive believers if they are not totally committed to Bible and Gospel truth.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#9
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#9
ewq1938 said:
Nope. The chapter doesn't even mention the gospel. It clearly states satan is bound AND imprisoned in the pit, with a lock that is locked. That is what keeps him from deceiving the nations. He is also not "limited" in power. He is unable to use any power to deceive the nations. The being bound with the chain by an angel and locked in this pit/prison shows that he is incapable of doing what he likes to do and has to wait until he is free. The gospel is not involved in any of this.
Click to expand...
The chapter also doesn’t say anything about a one world government, Israel, the Temple, the earthly reign of Jesus or most things people attribute to the millennium. Jesus does talk about “binding a strong man” with the preaching of the Gospel. And the only thing we are told about what this “binding means” is that Satan is not permitted to deceive the nations. I think it’s a logical conclusion that the preaching of the Good news throughout the world prevents Satan from deceiving and enslaving people as we see in the OT where only Israel received revelation from God. Anyway, everyone make some assumptions about what this millennium means…i just think mine come from the text and are implied elsewhere in the NT whereas other views on the millennium have nothing to do with the simple statement of “deceiving the nations.”

Anyway, I appreciate your response and examination of the Scriptures with me
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#10
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#10
Nehemiah6 said:
If you are speaking about the present time, that is incorrect. While the Gospel is being preached on the one hand, Satan is extremely active in deceiving the world. He even manages to deceive believers if they are not totally committed to Bible and Gospel truth.
Click to expand...
Well the reason I think this is the best explaination is this period is also marked by people being raised with Christ and not having to fear the second death. So unless we are going to suggest that there will be a 1000 year reign where dead people are raised and only the raised ones dont have to fear hell but the non Resurrected believers do… not to mention the fact that nowhere else in Scripture do we read of 3 different resurrections and two separate returns of Jesus at various stages in history. Jesus makes it pretty clear in all his teaching…he will come…raise the dead and judge the world. I think this view most aptly fits that simply depiction of how Christ explains his second coming in the Gospels and how the Apostles refer to it in the Epistles.

I think it’s a good rule of thumb to allow simple passages to help us understand complicated passages. I think viewing a complicated passage through the understanding of clear and simple passages is better than creating complicated end times charts based on one complicated passage that is entirely foreign to the rest of the NT.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#11
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#11
Chaps said:
Well the reason I think this is the best explaination is this period is also marked by people being raised with Christ and not having to fear the second death.
Click to expand...
I believe I may have misunderstood what you said. If you are speaking about the Millennium, then it is crystal clear that Satan is bound for those 1,000 years and therefore unable to deceive anyone. After that he is released and does deceive the nations.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#12
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#12
Nehemiah6 said:
You could have included the Futurist View, which sees the prophecies in Revelation as being for a future period (which may not be too far away either). Also there is no reason for a Cyclical View whatsoever. All the prophecies are in chronological sequence, with only some things which are "parenthetical". At the same time everything must be taken in its plain literal sense, and even most of the symbols have been interpreted for us.
Click to expand...
If you read more closely, you will see i did include a note about the futurist view.

The futurist view (perhaps most popular today) suggests that most of Revelation is all future predictions about various nations, governments and wars just prior to the Second Coming.
Click to expand...
Granted, that‘s a very simple comment about it and there are various approaches to the futurist view. But my point was simply to show there are different ways to view the book and mine is simply one of them.

Also, if all prophecies are in chronological sequence, how do you explain Jesus being born in chapter 11, after he had ascended to heaven in chapter 4 as the “lamb who was slain?”
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#13
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#13
Nehemiah6 said:
I believe I may have misunderstood what you said. If you are speaking about the Millennium, then it is crystal clear that Satan is bound for those 1,000 years and therefore unable to deceive anyone. After that he is released and does deceive the nations.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure. I am saying that John’s vision is using symbolic imagery to show that Satan’s power is limited. In the face of the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, he is powerless to hold hearers of the Good News in captivity. This is not to say he does not deceive, but that when the Gospel is preached, he is powerless. Nations are no longer bound to complete paganism and ignorance of the truth. The Gospel has been and is being preached to the whole world…and where it preached, Satan, his deceptions and ability to enslave men in their sins is completely powerless. Again, Jesus uses this same language when talking about the power of his work and message and I think John (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is drawing off this language to describe the situation during this “millennium”
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#14
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#14
Chaps said:
Also, if all prophecies are in chronological sequence, how do you explain Jesus being born in chapter 11, after he had ascended to heaven in chapter 4 as the “lamb who was slain?”
Click to expand...
That woman in Revelation 12 represents redeemed Israel, and the reference to Christ harks bark to a past event as wekll as His future reign.

As to Rev 4:1, that is definitely not a reference to the ascension of Christ, but an invitation to the apostle John to enter Heaven.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#15
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,279
113
#15
Chaps said:
Jesus does talk about “binding a strong man” with the preaching of the Gospel.
Click to expand...

Nope, he did not. He cast out demons from people and then spoke about how to bind a strong man to steal from him. Again the gospel is not mentioned.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#16
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#16
Chaps said:
I am saying that John’s vision is using symbolic imagery to show that Satan’s power is limited.
Click to expand...
Nothing is symbolic in Revelation unless it is shown to be symbolic. You have no reason to interpret that portion as symbolic.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#17
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,279
113
#17
Nehemiah6 said:
I believe I may have misunderstood what you said. If you are speaking about the Millennium, then it is crystal clear that Satan is bound for those 1,000 years and therefore unable to deceive anyone.
Click to expand...

Yes but let's be more accurate about it. satan is first bound then locked in the pit which acts like a prison. Mentioning being bound but not the imprisonment aids false doctrines that only speak of satan being bound but not being imprisoned as well.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#18
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#18
ewq1938 said:
Nope, he did not. He cast out demons from people and then spoke about how to bind a strong man to steal from him. Again the gospel is not mentioned.
Click to expand...
It seems you are just being pedantic in these responses. I guess I will just quote the Scriptures in their entirety so we dont have to go back and forth about what the passages state specifically. I enjoy having a discussion about these topics but I would appreciate if you approach the conversation with a little more tact and grace. Rather than telling me that Scripture never says something I believe it says, it would be nice if you just asked where I found such a concept or how I made that connection. Anyways, let me walk you through my understanding of it…

Matthew 12:25–30 (ESV): Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Click to expand...

Here, Jesus equates the “binding of the strong man” wits the idea that the “kingdom of God has come upon you.” We see throughout Matthew’s Gospel that he links both the “proclaiming of the gospel” of the coming kingdom with “healing every disease and every affliction.”


Matthew 9:35 (ESV): And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.
Click to expand...
Matthew 4:23 (ESV): And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
Click to expand...


So, in Matthew 12 we see after Jesus has gone through locations “proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction” that he is confronted doing this very thing and is accused of having the power of his healing attributed to Satan. Thus, Jesus connects his “proclaiming of the gospel of the kingdom” with his power to “bind the strong man.” I stand by my point that Jesus connects the proclaiming of the gospel with his power to bind Satan. His miracles of healing were “signs” of this spiritual truth.

Yet Matthew’s Gospel goes even further in connecting the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom with binding and loosing…

Matthew 16:18–19 (ESV): And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Click to expand...

Jesus equates not only his own preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to the binding of Satan, but also applies this concept to the ability of his Church to bind and loose through the “keys” he provides them. Clearly these keys and authority are connected to the preaching of the gospel. The “gates of hell” are powerless to resist the message of the Church. Christians have authority from Jesus to storm the enemy gates and free captives.



Lets look at one more passage…this time in Luke’s Gospel…


Luke 4:17–21 (ESV): And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.
Click to expand...
Once again, we see the proclaimation of the “good news” from Jesus to the free those the enemy has held captive. While this passage does not specifically use the word “bind” the same concept is at play. The idea is that Satan has taken the world captive. Jesus has come to proclaim the gospel of the coming kingdom of God. In doing so, he binds Satan is able to plunder his how and “set at liberty those who are oppressed.” The Church, Jesus says, has this same authority to bind the enemy and set loose the captives. Just like this power was displayed in Jesus’ proclaimation of the “good new” of the kingdom, so the Church also accomplishes this through the preaching of the good news of death and resurrection of Jesus which has ushered in his Kingdom to the world. Those who hear and believe are set free and the gates of hell are powerless to stop the Church in this effort.

I hope this is more clear and that you understand I am not making things up about what Scripture says on the subject.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#19
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#19
Nehemiah6 said:
Nothing is symbolic in Revelation unless it is shown to be symbolic. You have no reason to interpret that portion as symbolic.
Click to expand...
This is not true. The Greek literally says that the message of Revelation was communicated to John by the angel in “symbols.”

Revelation 1:1 (NA27): Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,
Click to expand...
“This key word is semaino, which many versions translate in a generalized way here, i.e., “to communicate, to make known” (NASB, NIV, ESV, NRSV). Its basic meaning, though, is “to communicate through signs or symbols or figures,” i.e., “to signify,” and is so translated in the KJV, NKJV, and ASV.” - Cottrell

Moreover, this is not uncommon regarding God’s communication to his prophets...

Numbers 12:6–8
6 and he said,
“Please hear my words:
If there is a prophet among you, I, Yahweh,
will make myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with my servant Moses;
in all my house he is faithful.
8 I will speak to him mouth to mouth,
in clearness, not in riddles;
and he will look at the form of Yahweh.
Why were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses.”
Click to expand...
Hosea 12:10
Click to expand...
Hosea 12:10 (ESV): 10 I spoke to the prophets;
it was I who multiplied visions,
and through the prophets gave parables.
Click to expand...
And what do you even mean that “nothing is symbolic unless it is ”shown” to be symbolic.” Are you suggesting that unless John is specifically told that something is a symbol, than it is not? Because I’d be happy to go through hundreds of passages of Revelation that are not specifically said to be symbols, but EVERYONE, including you, interprets symbolically or metaphorically.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#20
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
#20
Nehemiah6 said:
That woman in Revelation 12 represents redeemed Israel, and the reference to Christ harks bark to a past event as wekll as His future reign.

As to Rev 4:1, that is definitely not a reference to the ascension of Christ, but an invitation to the apostle John to enter Heaven.
Click to expand...

I misspoke. I was not referring to Revelation 4 but Revelation 5:4ff.

Revelation 5:4–10 (ESV): 4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
Click to expand...
So, contexually, in Chapter 4, John is taken up to see the throne room of God. In chapter 5, he is weeping because no one is capable of opening the scroll and suddenly Jesus appears as the slain Lamb. All of heaven worships Jesus as the one who is worthy to open the scroll.

I think it’s clear that Jesus’ appearing in heaven as the slain Lamb occurs after his birth in Revelation 11. So my point is these visions cannot be chronological. Moreover, not only do we see Jesus appear in heaven as the victor who casts down Satan repetitively (Rev. 7 and 12), but more significantly we see final judgment repeated over and over in Revelation. I think there is no justification to try to create wild timelines with multiple comings of Jesus and various judgments when nowhere in Scripture do we reach of such a thing. There is one second coming and one final judgment. Revelation has repetitive final judgment descriptions because these are cyclical, not chronological events. Even the language in many of these judgment scenes are identical…revealing that they are the same event.

Revelation 7:15–17 (ESV): Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Click to expand...
Revelation 11:15–18 (ESV)
Click to expand...
: 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”
Click to expand...
Revelation 14:14–19 (ESV)
Click to expand...
:
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Click to expand...
Revelation 19:6–8 (ESV): 6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
8 it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Click to expand...

Revelation 21:1–4 (ESV): Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Click to expand...

So, here we see FIVE different scenes where God reigns, wipes tears from the eyes of his people, reigning forever and ever, and judging the wicked. I dont understand how the scene in Revelation 7 can be seen as anything other than final judgment and the redemption of the saints. Literally it uses nearly identical language as Rev 21 where God shelters his people from hunger and heat forever and wipes the tears from their eyes. Also in Revelation 11, Jesus in his wrath destroys the “destroyers of the earth“ and has begun his “reign.” If Jesus destroyed all the destroyers of the earth and reigns in chapter 11, where did all the evil come from in the next chapter?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.