The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

This is sad.

In your obsession with Law, you have missed the wonderful gift of God: salvation by faith.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

if what you teach is true then why does the new testament teach new gentile believers to stay uncircumcised? why does acts 15 jerusalem church council exist? none of these should be happenin if you are correct.

The law does remain for the lawless, who will be judged and condemned by it. Actually, they are
condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son, whereas,
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God’s law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason, which should not be mistaken as being as ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God. Jesus spent ministry teaching his followers to obey God’s law by word and by example, so the purpose not to rule that Gentiles shouldn’t be Christians, but rather their purpose was to rule that salvation was by grace rather than by circumcision and they expected that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues (Acts 21:20).

Those who agree with the truth of these words as Scripture will consider Christ's Gospel to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand to be very good news and will be obsessed with teaching obedience to God's law in accordance with it:

Deuteronomy 6:4-7 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.


Indeed, that verse is true, though I think that Romans 10:5-8 referring to Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim should influence how we should understand the surrounding verses. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so confessing that Jesus is Lord is agreeing to obediently submit to God's word in accordance with Deuteronomy 30:11-16. Likewise, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sins while we continued to live in sin, so there must also be an aspect of our salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law. Moreover, Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

you just refuted your own argument.

salvation indeed is by grace not thru circumcision.

you do know you arent actualy keeping the law of moses? even passover you arent keeping, or are you killing a lamb and eating it completely with your family? quickly while holding a staff in your hand? thats what the bible demands.

exodus 12:

6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

even if you make the excuse as all torah observers do that they cant sacrifice animals cause no temple, do you atleast take some lamb blood and put it on your doorframes? you better do it

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God’s law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross while to say that God’s law is not existent today is to strip Jesus of his purpose and work.


All of God’s righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), however, Ephesians 2:15 is referring to a law that is not eternal, therefore it is not referring to the Law of God, especially because the Bible never uses the Greek word “dogma” to refer to the Law of God. God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves. God did not make any mistakes when he gave His law, so He had no need to send Jesus to abolish His own law, especially because Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the Law of God and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to relax the least part of it Matthew 5:17-19). In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, not to free us from God’s law so that we could be free to do what it reveals to be wickedness. In Romans 3:31, Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it, yet that doesn’t stop people from trying to use his words to abolish it rather than uphold it by faith.

In Ephesians 2:10-19, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so it doesn’t make any sense to interpret that passage as saying that Jesus abolished his law for how to do good works. Paul said that Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, but through the blood of Christ all of those things are not longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. So it is speaking about Gentiles becoming joined to these things in accordance with becoming obedient to God’s law, not about Gentiles becoming separated from these things in accordance with God’s law being abolished.


In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, not not removing our salvation by separating us from it.

We “have faith” in the existence and promises of God, which we cannot see, but not in His word, which we can see. See Hebrews 11:1.

The faith we express in Christianity is the knowledge that we are accepted by God not on the basis of adherence or obedience to the Law, but by the blood of Jesus.

In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness and wickedness is contrary to God’s law, so do you affirm or deny that we should have faith in the promise?

Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone who was an obeyer of God and there is no example of someone having faith inside of obeying God’s will.

Christianity is about following Christ,

When it comes to God’s law, do you affirm or deny that we should have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong?

you just refuted your own argument.

salvation indeed is by grace not thru circumcision.

you do know you arent actualy keeping the law of moses? even passover you arent keeping, or are you killing a lamb and eating it completely with your family? quickly while holding a staff in your hand? thats what the bible demands.

exodus 12:

6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

even if you make the excuse as all torah observers do that they cant sacrifice animals cause no temple, do you atleast take some lamb blood and put it on your doorframes? you better do it

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and
writing it on our hearts, not not removing our salvation by separating us from it.

I have not argued that we earn our salvation as the result of having first been circumcised, and in fact I agree that that is not the case, but that we are saved by grace, so I have not refuted my own argument. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. There is a huge difference between the position that our salvation requires us to have first obeying the Mosaic Law in order to earn it as the result, which many verses deny, and the position that we our salvation requires us to be a doer of the Mosaic Law, which many support. For example, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In other words, the Mosaic Law was given to teach us what the content of God's gift of salvation is, not as a means of earning our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn out salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedient to it.


Do you grant that there can be both legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law? For example, not even Jesus followed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. The Israelites were given a number of laws had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is not wrong with not following a law that can't currently be followed. Likewise, when the Israelites were exiled in Babylon the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which contained laws in regard to temple practice, which they couldn't obey because the temple had just been destroyed, so God honored their obedience to the laws that they could obey. There are legitimate reasons, not making excuses.

There is a difference between the instructions that were given during the first Passover and how it is cerebrated afterwards in accordance with Deuteronomy 16:1-8. The issue of what I am personally doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God ought follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, so even if I were living in complete disobedience to the Mosaic Law, then it wouldn't change the fact that followers of God ought to follow what He has commanded in accordance with Christ's example.

respectfully i would say what you personally are doing matters, you quoted deuteronomy 16:1-8 and i guarantee you arent sacrificing a lamb, no way.
nothing is preventing you from doing it, you could buy a lamb and slaughter it in the woods, but you refuse to obey the commandment

this is my final response as i feel it wont lead to anything fruitful, ive had my dance with the hebrew roots crowd. its always the same backdooring works salvation.

"oh you arent saved by the law of moses, of course not brother its all grace."
-"Phew! you guys have been misunderstood, maybe i will join you guys, Jesus was jewish after all."
-"oh yeah btw, its not that you are saved by the law of moses but, now that you are saved by grace, you better keep it or you will be a worker of lawlessness and be cast out from Jesus."
"*-gulps*"

and here we have another soul entangled.

not every mention of law means law of moses, not every mention of commandments means law of moses

The Mosaic Law requires sacrifices to be done at the temple with a presiding Levitical priesthood, not for us to do sacrifices in our backyard.

Under the New Covenant, we are saved by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

Not by pretending we are to practice a religion with laws nobody can follow any more.

the position that we are not obligated to obey it (Mosaic Law ) is the position that we do not need salvation.

Are they doing that? No. Are you attending temple sacrifices? No. Are you providing animals for sacrifice? No. Are you
following the law? No. Are you keeping the commandments contained in the 613 you say are written on our hearts? No.

In short, you do not do the very thing you keep telling others they should be doing.

I am sorry to hear you reject Christ. He is the only way to the Father. He said so.

And you do not obey the Mosaic Law. You should stop lying about that, and pretending people can.

I've given examples in the Bible where people were not required to obey laws that they can't currently obey, so you are more concerned with trying to gotcha than with whether your position is supported by the Bible.

Only at christian forums do "christians" nit-pick each other so much. I can't imagine what it's like for brand-new Christians to come to places like this and just get smashed by what are supposed to be their leaders and guides. I wish I were a moderator. This evil would be extracted and permanently dealt with.