Predestination is misunderstood...

Thanks a bunch. Appreciate the resource.

im just trying to be as clear as possible, 😊

I have been as clear as possible to My friend @Cameron143 because I care about him, and I just want you both to be strong in the heart and have a stronghold.

Trust me on this: Your extremely low self-awareness level came through loud and clear in your last post.

You missed the whole point. To walk in the Spirit is to be under the influence of the Spirit. It is impossible for the Spirit to lead you into sin. Consequently, when you sin, you are under your influence, not His. That means your heart apart from the influence of the Spirit remains the source of your sinfulness. You can come to terms with this or not. But unless you do, you won't experience what real obedience is and consists in.

It's ok buddy I have another concern,

Why is unconditional election just associated to John Calvin or Calvinists.

None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

Surely unconditional election is based on whom God decides to to save.

I assume it is related to Calvin because he was one of the most vocal proponents of it during the Reformation.
The reasons people reject his positions vary. One you point to in your reference verses is the depravity of man. People disagree on what the natural fallen man is capable of understanding and doing.

The point I'm making is surely it's down to who God decides to save.

Regardless of all other views, beliefs doctrines, arguments.

What your view.

Would you say unconditional election is true.

I can think of one reason why it may be true .

Simply this.

Just as moses coughed up the bread of life.


So man can cough up his mercy seed.

Titus says God's salvation is offered to all by God's grace.

What is that grace, 🤔

Is it a mercy seed that people either receive or cough up.

I begin with the sovereignty of God. And I believe He chooses. But I also believe man is given the freedom to make choices, but being limited in understanding and fallen in his nature, actually chooses to his own detriment. Consequently, if God doesn't intervene in the affairs of man, man will always make himself worthy of destruction.

I believe grace is this intervention which enables men to understand things concerning themselves and God that they will never come to apart from this intervention.

I begin with the sovereignty of God. And I believe He chooses. But I also believe man is given the freedom to make choices, but being limited in understanding and fallen in his nature, actually chooses to his own detriment. Consequently, if God doesn't intervene in the affairs of man, man will always make himself worthy of destruction.

I believe grace is this intervention which enables men to understand things concerning themselves and God that they will never come to apart from this intervention.

Do you believe God give all men the grace to believe correct doctrine?

Paul declared God is Love, not God is Sovereign.

As well, sovereign does not mean a puppet master.

I begin with the sovereignty of God. And I believe He chooses. But I also believe man is given the freedom to make choices, but being limited in understanding and fallen in his nature, actually chooses to his own detriment. Consequently, if God doesn't intervene in the affairs of man, man will always make himself worthy of destruction.

I believe grace is this intervention which enables men to understand things concerning themselves and God that they will never come to apart from this intervention.

what's your thoughts on how his grace enables this person

None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

How does his grace enable this person.

Surely God's sovereignty is to exercise his ruling power over his creation.

And surely is authority has limitations that can't be breached.

I believe Acts 2:37 teaches how. Peter has just finished preaching and everyone present has heard the same message, but only 3,000 respond. Why?
If we look at verse 37 we find out why. It says they HEARD this. Since we know everyone heard what Peter said, what is this particular hearing referring to? I believe it's the hearing spoken of in Matthew 13:10-17 and Romans 10:17 that faith comes by.
It also says they were pricked in their hearts. I believe this to be the circumcision of the heart pictured in OT circumcision and foretold in Ezekiel 36:26 and other places concerning the giving of a new heart.
Lastly, they asked...what shall we do? As a result of hearing and consequent faith, pricking and consequent new heart, their wills were impacted to seek after God.
I'm not sure I understand your questions concerning sovereignty.

Ok I see where your coming from, thanks for explaining.

So there has to be some kind of willingness from an unbeliever before more will is given more.

But what is it that gives him that will.

Would that be his own willing, or some kind of intervention, that is given that should enable a mans will.

I don't believe an unbeliever is even able to understand fully his position or need before God. I believe this is what it means to be dead in trespasses and sin. I also believe in and of himself, man is helpless to affect the changes necessary to have peace with God. There is nothing in any of us worthy of receiving anything from God. In fact, He exercises grace to us in spite of us. This is what people are speaking to when they say grace is unmerited or undeserved.

But they are able to reject God, so they do have will,

So what is it that enables there will buddy.

And what is that rejects that will.

Surely it must be God's mercy seed that is rejected.

Surely this is the saving grace buddy that everyone is offered.

Where does this grace become unmerited if it's rejected buddy, is it not given on the bases it is received.

Surely the mercy seed is given to transform man's will.

The point I'm making is surely it's down to who God decides to save.

The point I'm making is surely it's down to who God decides to save.

Regardless of all other views, beliefs doctrines, arguments.

Just as moses coughed up the bread of life.

So man can cough up his mercy seed.
....
Is it a mercy seed that people either receive or cough up.

God has declared clearly in Scripture that He wants all to come to salvation. That declaration is inconsistent with "who God decides to save". Clear Scripture trumps "all other views, beliefs, doctrines, arguments."


Where in Scripture is it recorded that "Moses coughed up the bread of life"?


Um... no.