Predestination is misunderstood...

I see, So you’re special. That God give you this, But they are not because God did not.

my friend, This is why I do no like fatalism, It states God respects people. And only lets some get in.. Thats not a God of love.

It's not a case of believing what I want.

It's a case of God helping me to believe.

I have consistently said God gives his mercy to whom he decides to.

But giving mercy can not be a once in a life time event, as you may need mercy tomorrow, but you can be punished by God, so whilst your under punishment from God, should he give you mercy before your punishment is served, that would be plain silly, your more than likely going to disrespect the house of the lord again.

In some cases could he remove your first seed, to make you cry out for mercy, because you kept on denying his mercy.

We are talking about a just God here who's wages for sin is death.

Scripture also indicates this, to those who willfully disobey, who know they are, will be treated for harshly.

So why should we hold to your view, Saul lost his salvation or he never was saved, or he was just used for purpose by the holy spirit.

Why could Saul not have been getting punished when the spirit left him.

What makes a person saved by the first seed, any less worthy of punishment than someone who has not even had the first seed.


All scriptures should be important to you, and when you clearly see the words Saul was chosen to have the spirit change him.

And then you see the words the spirit left him.

How on earth can you just dismiss this as not important to you.

Because according to the word this is a brother.

Why would you even want to not see this as important.

Unless you have a certain doctrine you stand to,.that you believe is full proof.

Circumcision of the Heart:

Spiritual Transformation: Circumcision of the heart symbolizes an inner change, a spiritual renewal that goes beyond external rituals. It signifies a purification of one's inner being, thoughts, and desires.

Old Testament Roots: The idea of circumcision of the heart finds its origins in the Old Testament, where God calls His people to circumcise their hearts and not just their flesh (Deuteronomy 10:16).

New Covenant Fulfillment: In the New Testament, this concept is further developed, emphasizing the importance of genuine faith and inner righteousness over outward observances (Romans 2:28-29).

Pricking and Justification:
Symbolic Pricking: The act of pricking symbolizes the cutting away of sin and unbelief from the heart, paving the way for spiritual renewal and transformation.

Justification at the Cross: The statement suggests that justification, or being declared righteous before God, was accomplished through Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This act provided the basis for reconciliation between humanity and God.

Application of Justification: The gospel message serves as the means by which individuals appropriate this justification by faith. Through hearing, believing, and responding to the gospel, individuals receive the benefits of Christ's atoning work on their behalf.

Gospel Application:
Justification by Faith: The gospel proclaims the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. It is through this message that individuals come to understand and receive the justification provided by

Christ's sacrifice.
Personal Reconciliation: The application of justification through the gospel results in personal reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins, and adoption into His family as children.
Transformational Impact: The gospel not only declares individuals righteous before God but also initiates a process of sanctification and ongoing spiritual growth as believers conform more closely to the image of Christ.

So-to sum it up-, the concept of being circumcised in their hearts signifies a deep spiritual transformation and renewal that goes beyond external rituals. Justification at the cross provides the foundation for this transformation, with the gospel serving as the means by which individuals appropriate this justification through faith. The application of justification through the gospel results in personal reconciliation with God and ongoing spiritual growth as believers walk in faith and obedience.
English Translation:
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins."
Lexical Analysis:
Καὶ (Kai): Conjunction meaning "and," connecting two clauses together.
ὑμᾶς (Hymas): Second person plural pronoun meaning "you".
ὄντας (Ontas): Present active participle of the verb "εἰμί (eimi)" meaning "being" or "were".
νεκρούς (Nekrou): Accusative plural adjective meaning "dead".
τοῖς (Tois): Dative plural definite article meaning "the".
παραπτῶμασιν (Paraptōmasin): Dative plural noun meaning "trespasses" or "transgressions".
καὶ (Kai): Conjunction meaning "and".
ταῖς (Tais): Dative plural definite article meaning "the".
ἁμαρτίαις (Hamartiais): Dative plural noun meaning "sins".

Theological Implications:
Paul uses vivid language to describe the spiritual state of the Ephesian Christians prior to their conversion. By using the term "dead," he conveys that they were completely separated from God and devoid of any spiritual life. This phrase highlights the severity of human depravity apart from divine intervention.

The use of the dative case in both instances ("to trespasses" and "to sins") suggests that the Ephesians were enmeshed within these conditions rather than merely being affected by them. They had become entangled in transgression and sinful behavior, which led to their spiritual demise.

Moreover, the conjunctions "and" connect the concepts of trespasses and sins, implying that both are intertwined elements contributing to one's spiritual death. Trespasses refer to specific acts of disobedience against God's commands, whereas sins denote a broader concept of failing to meet God's expectations. Together, they represent humanity's broken relationship with God and the consequences thereof.

Finally, the present tense of the verb "were dead" indicates that this was not simply a past event but also a continuous reality until the moment of salvation. In other words, the Ephesians remained spiritually dead until they received God's gracious gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Overall, Ephesians 2:1 provides a poignant reminder of the depth of human depravity without God's redeeming love and the radical transformation brought about by His mercy and grace. As such, it offers encouragement to those who struggle with feelings of guilt and shame, assuring them that God can bring beauty from even the darkest circumstances when one places their trust in Him.

Amen?

I understand clearly

God died for the world. So that whoever in the word believed, will never perish.

Your understanding of a natural man is flawed.. God can do anythign he wants

Hmm...This is the first time I question anything you have written. But justification itself also occurs in space and time, since we're all justified by faith (Rom 3:28) and grace (Tit 3:7). But neither faith or grace were given to us at the Cross or applied to us at the Cross.

If God were only love, then your argument would hold. But God is also sovereign, holy, and just. And He is equally glorified in the exercise of these attributes as He is in exercising love.
I understand the desire that all should be saved. I share it. That doesn't mean we should distort the truth concerning God and His ways. We should comport our understanding to what God reveals.
I'm not special in any way. God saved me in spite of who I am. And I'm not fatalistic. The gospel is to be preached to all. But Jesus doesn't turn goats into sheep. He seeks and He saves the sheep who are lost.

It was in God's mind. Jesus doesn't come again to pay for our sins. If we weren't justified at the cross, from whence does it come?

The fact that you ask this question that I highlighted above proves you have no biblical proof for such a presupposition. Of course, if I'm wrong, then feel free to quote chapter and verse.

That was not necessary-we need to keep our emotions in check.


The concept that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God is elucidated in 1 Corinthians 2:14. This verse highlights the spiritual discernment required to comprehend divine truths and the inherent inability of those without the Spirit of God to grasp them.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (King James Version):
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

This verse emphasizes that individuals who do not possess the Spirit of God, often referred to as the "natural man," are unable to accept or comprehend spiritual truths. The verse conveys that such truths appear as foolishness to them due to their lack of spiritual insight and discernment.

Key Points:
Natural Man: Refers to individuals who are devoid of the Spirit of God, hence lacking spiritual discernment.

Rejection of Spiritual Truths: The natural man does not receive or accept spiritual teachings because they seem nonsensical or illogical to them.

Inability to Understand: The verse underscores that without spiritual discernment, individuals cannot grasp or comprehend divine truths as they are evaluated and understood through a spiritual lens.

Theological Implications:
This verse highlights the necessity of spiritual enlightenment for understanding God's wisdom and teachings.

It emphasizes the transformative role of the Holy Spirit in illuminating and revealing spiritual truths to believers.

It underscores the contrast between worldly wisdom and divine wisdom, with the former being inadequate for comprehending matters of faith.

In essence, 1 Corinthians 2:14 serves as a reminder of the profound difference between human understanding and spiritual discernment, emphasizing the crucial role of the Holy Spirit in enabling believers to perceive and embrace the truths of God.


To further explore the Greek text behind 1 Corinthians 2:14 and unpack its lexical meanings, let us examine the following passage:

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NA28 Greek Text)
ἀλλὰ ψυχὴ ἄφωνος ὁ γέννητός ἐν τοῖς πneumati θεοῦ μή πω λαβεῖν τὰ πνευματικά· δηλοῖ γάρ αὐτά τις ἀσυνετὸς ἔστιν αὐτά· οὐκ ἔχων γὰρ ἐξ ἐπιγνώσεως αὐτά

English Translation:
"However, the unspoken soul, the generated one, has not yet received the spiritual ones; indeed, something unintelligent is shown to be this; not having from knowledge these."

Lexical Analysis:
ἀλλὰ (Alla): Conjunction meaning "but" or "however."
ψυχὴ (Psychē): Noun meaning "soul" or "life."
ἄφωνος (Aphtonos): Adjective meaning "unspoken" or "silent."
ὁ (Ho): Article indicating singular masculine subject.
γέννητός (Gennetos): Adjective meaning "generated" or "born."
ἐν (En): Preposition meaning "in" or "by means of."
τοῖς (Tois): Definite article in genitive plural form, meaning "the."
πνευματικά (Pneumatika): Noun in nominative plural form, meaning "things pertaining to the Spirit" or "spiritual things."
δηλοῖ (Deiloi): Verb meaning "shows" or "indicates."
γάρ (Gar): Particle introducing explanation or clarification.
αὐτά (Auta): Pronoun in third person neuter plural form, referring back to "spiritual things."
ἀσυνετὸς (Asyntetos): Adjective meaning "unintelligent" or "without intelligence."
ἔχων (Echon): Verb in present passive participle form, meaning "having" or "possessing."
γὰρ (Gar): Particle introducing explanation or clarification.
ἐξ (Ex): Preposition meaning "from" or "out of."
ἐπιγνώσεως (Epignoeseos): Genitive form of the noun "epignosis," meaning "knowledge" or "understanding."

Theological Implications:
1 Corinthians 2:14 presents a stark contrast between the spiritual mindset of believers and nonbelievers. The "psychē aphtonos gennetos" refers to the natural man, whose soul is silent regarding spiritual matters. The term "aphtonos" implies that the natural man does not speak or express himself concerning spiritual realities.

Furthermore, the phrase "mē pō labein ta pneumatika" reveals that the natural man does not receive or take hold of spiritual things. He remains ignorant of spiritual truths, as indicated by the absence of epignosis, or true understanding.

Lastly, the verse states that the unintelligence of the natural man is evident in his inability to comprehend spiritual matters. The term "asyntetos" connotes a lack of intellectual capacity to fathom spiritual realities.

In summary, 1 Corinthians 2:14 portrays the fundamental distinction between the spiritual comprehension of believers and the ignorance of nonbelievers. Believers possess the ability to understand spiritual truths through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, while nonbelievers remain blind to such realities. This verse reinforces the importance of spiritual discernment and the indispensable role of the Holy Spirit in unlocking the mysteries of God's Word.

In Koine Greek, the term translated as "the natural man" in English is ψυχὴ ἀφωνοῦς γεννητῆς (psyche aphtonos genētēs)

Breaking down this expression:

ψυχή (psyche): Soul or life
ἀφωνός (aphtonos): Silent or unspoken
γέννητός (gennetos): Born or generated

Thus, "the natural man" refers to an individual who is born or generated in a state of silence regarding spiritual matters. Such a person does not possess the Holy Spirit and is incapable of understanding spiritual truths without divine revelation


Personally-I think your understanding of the "natural man" is flawed and @Cameron143 has a firm grasp and biblical understanding re "dead in trespasses and sins"

Noo that would.be silly God doesn't do anything he wants, he's more disciplined than that.

No, your statement "neither faith nor grace were given to us at the Cross or applied to us at the Cross" is incorrect according to biblical teaching.

On the contrary, the cross represents the central act of God's plan of salvation where faith and grace are made available to all people.

First, consider the apostolic witness that faith comes through hearing the message of Christ crucified (Romans 10:17). At the cross, Jesus accomplished the redemptive work necessary for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God (Colossians 1:20). Faith arises from the proclamation of this good news, making it possible for individuals to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Second, grace is the undeserved favor of God bestowed upon humankind through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (John 3:16). Grace enables faith to arise in the hearts of believers and empowers them to live righteous lives (Titus 2:11–12).
Therefore, the cross marks the point in history where faith and grace became accessible to humanity. Both are gifts freely offered to all who place their trust in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).
For a more thorough examination of the Greek texts related to faith and grace, please see Romans 10:17 and Titus 2:11–12. These verses demonstrate how faith and grace are intimately connected to the cross and its impact on humanity.


Through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, God demonstrated His righteousness and provided a path for humans to be declared righteous despite their sin (Romans 3:25–26).
When someone places their faith in Jesus Christ, they are considered justified because their sins are forgiven, and they are credited with the righteousness of Christ (Romans 3:28, 2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, although justification occurs throughout the course of a believer's life, the cross is the foundational event that makes justification possible.
Confidence in this interpretation stems from the clear connection between the cross and justification in passages such as Romans 3:21–26, 2 Corinthians 5:21, and Galatians 3:13–14. Additionally, the concept of justification is closely tied to the atonement achieved through Christ's death (Romans 5:9, 8:1).

J.

but even the spiritual man who is saved still thinks like a natural man, when he doesn't seek the lord,

For we know the the spirit dwells in the heart, and the forces of evil constantly go to work on the head.

So if the spiritual man behave natural, it's not the case he is not spiritual,

It may be he's still just a man and prone to emotional outbursts lol.

As he struggles to grow in patience, and hold on to his heart.

It takes time to practice and perfect but I believe thorough practice you can withstand anything.

Including not grasping interpretation.

The mind is also like a sponge lol, and if you don't train it Daily it soon drys up.

Well the heart in the spiritual man is a fountain of youth, and if you don't go there, it will be led by the tongue.

So many people say the first thing that comes into their head.

The bible says that God's love was demonstrated at the Cross, as well as his justice (or righteousness), but it says nothing about our justification occurring at the Cross.

I understand and appreciate your point "it was in God's mind" in eternity, which of course means all God's elect were predestined in eternity to be saved (which would include our justification). But by the same token his grace and the gift of his faith must be experienced by each of us in time and space -- and that's when God's will for our lives becomes a reality -- as opposed to his eternal decree.

They were convicted of their sin, it's the Holy Spirit's job. Please note, He is convicting the "world" which is full of "dead" people so the whole argument "dead people can't respond" is a fallacy when we understand the Spirit, by means of grace, can make it "as if" people are alive so they can hear the truth and respond of their own volition.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Indeed, their response shows they believed Peter's words which is why Peter then directed them to repent and be baptized.

I bet the problem is you think being quickened (as you call it) is receiving the Holy Spirit. Many make that mistake.

Well does Samuel not say the spirit left him.

What else could that be other than punishment, go on enlighten me.

Greek Text (NA28):
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ περὶ κρίσεως.

Transliteration:
Hotan de elthei ekeinos, elegxei ton kosmon peri hamartias kai peri dikaiosynes kai peri krisews.

Expanded Analysis:
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος (Hotan de elthei ekeinos):
ὅταν (Hotan): Indicates a temporal condition, "when."
δέ (de): Conjunction denoting transition or contrast.
ἔλθῃ (elthei): Aorist subjunctive active form of "ἔρχομαι (erchomai)," meaning "he comes."
ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos): Refers to the Holy Spirit.
ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ περὶ κρίσεως (Elegxei ton kosmon peri hamartias kai peri dikaiosynes kai peri krisews):
ἐλέγξει (elegxei): Future indicative active form of "ἐλέγχω (elegcho)," meaning "he will convict."
τόν κόσμον (ton kosmon): Accusative singular noun "world."
περί ἁμαρτίας (peri hamartias): Concerning sin.
καί (kai): Conjunction meaning "and."
περί δικαιοσύνης (peri dikaiosynes): Concerning righteousness.
καί (kai): Conjunction meaning "and."
περί κρίσεως (peri krisews): Concerning judgment.

Theological Depth:
Conviction of Sin: The Holy Spirit convicts individuals of their sinfulness, leading them to recognize their need for repentance and salvation through Christ.
Conviction of Righteousness: He reveals the standard of God's righteousness embodied in Jesus Christ, guiding believers to pursue a life aligned with God's moral and ethical standards.
Conviction of Judgment: The Spirit warns of the impending judgment, urging individuals to heed the call to faith and reconciliation with God before facing eternal consequences.
Contextual Significance:
In the broader context of John 16, Jesus is preparing His disciples for His departure and the coming of the Holy Spirit as their Advocate and Guide. The Spirit's role in convicting the world underscores His transformative work in revealing truth, leading to repentance, faith, and a life characterized by righteousness and obedience to God.

This verse highlights the comprehensive ministry of the Holy Spirit in bringing about spiritual awakening, conviction, and transformation in individuals and societies. It emphasizes the essential role of the Spirit in illuminating truth, convicting hearts, and drawing people into a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
By understanding the depth of the Holy Spirit's work in convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, believers are encouraged to embrace His guidance, respond to His prompting, and walk in alignment with God's will for their lives.

J.

Ahh..."made available". But that's not the same as saying that we were all justified at the Cross, which was Cameron's position. What you're saying -- and I totally agree with you-- is that the Cross and for that matter Christ's resurrection, as well (Rom 4:25), made salvation possible for all who would come to believe on Him.

It could mean what I said the other day. See Heb 6:4-6. For your info, narratives in scripture very often validate didactic teaching in the NT.

I don't disagree. It is applied in space and time. But it was already accomplished. In salvation, God reveals to the believer what He has done for them in Christ.
From God's perspective, we were in Christ before the foundation of the world. I make no claim to understand how it all works exactly. I don't understand what an infinite mind can conceive.

Personally it's the love and mercies of God that encourages me to walk in accordance with His will. Understanding the Spirit's work in the world is what gives me the courage to face an unbelieving world knowing that sometimes that work of conviction will bring on hostility.