Predestination is misunderstood...

Because I would first have to hear how you think on the subject.

The topic involves a lot of preconceived notions that some assume as if it were common knowledge.

Over the years I have learned not to enter into such a question without first seeing how you see it, which you have been reticent to share.

Tares and the wheat must grow up together brother-keen discernment is Imperative.
J.

The problem with you premise is that us "befriending" God is totally backwards, since friendship with Him is not in our DNA. The natural disposition of the human heart is enmity with God! What do you think the doctrine of Reconciliation is all about? If God predestined any of us to salvation based upon our friendly attitude or disposition towards him, then why would he need reconcile anyone to himself. Why would he need to reconcile friends to himself?

You have no biblical understanding of predestination. Predestination is not contingent on man's will, man's attitude toward God or anything that man does. Salvation has nothing to do with man's efforts to please God. Have you never read?

Rom 9:16-18
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
NIV

Moreover, in your understanding of predestination, his grace would actually be a reward to his "friends", would it not? He would be rewarding us for our friendship toward him.


Is this where I'm supposed to chuckle or something?

The subject of Romans 9 is election. It is talking about eternal salvation. And Romans 9 itself divides the world into two groups: The elect and non-elect.

But having said that, there aren't two different kinds of clay. There isn't yielding clay and resisting clay. There is only one kind of clay -- the clay under the universal indictment of Paul in Romans 3! Not only that but you totally miss what v. 21 is teaching. There is only ONE lump of clay. Here's the verse with some added context.

Rom 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV

According to you, the Potter is a very poor craftsman, isn't he? He can make some pots very well ("for noble purposes") and others not very well at all ("for common use") -- both from the same lump of clay!. And notice that it is the Potter making the clay! The clay has no say! It is God who patiently bore the objects his wrath prepared for destruction, and who chose to reveal his glory to the object of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for his glory

Congratulations! You have finally said something upon which we both can agree! Since all sinners come into this world spiritually stillborn (as in DEAD), then man's will is truly a non sequitur in this discussion. After all, the essence of your objection to the Reformed understanding of predestination is that God does not overpower any free moral agent's power of choice. And I agree totally with you on this point -- but not for the reason you think, sir. I agree because we mere mortals do not possess the will power to raise ourselves from the dead -- from our own spiritual tombs. Only God has that power! Therefore, how in the world can God force anything on anyone, when none of us have the [will] power to do only what he can!? When Jesus raised Lazarus from his physical tomb, do you really believe that Jesus forced his will upon Lazarus --that he made Lazarus do something against his will that he couldn't do in the first place!?

Predestination is a plan of God. It is a future plan of God that has been given to those who have believed his Son. It is a plan to adopt and redeem the bodies of those that believe. That is bible. If you are in Christ, your destination has been determined! Your destination is for your body to be redeemed! Praise the Lord! It is when this corruptible will put on incorruption, and this mortal will put on immortality!

The promise seed would bring salvation. The seed line was coming through Abraham, Isaac, and...either Jacob or Esau. It couldn't be both. God chose Jacob as the seed line of Christ.

A Spirit led, well seasoned witness, will intuitively speak the right words and not follow some script as you seem to be seeking to establish.

..........

Yes, the Lord's death was for every man's sins. But his sacrifice would only apply to those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Why? His blood was shed for all sins, no matter the sin, no matter the person.

Question:

Are you a proponent of Calvinism?

I'll give you a little good gesture,

The word will is mentioned roughly 2800 times in the old testament, and 480 times in the new testament.

Its quite the study.

Really if you really want to understand predestinated, then you will literally learn hundreds of predestinated journeys, with the word will, with a little hope, I hope you will 😂.

Then you can totally blot Calvinism and free will out of the window 😋

I think what's happening John, is your being sucked in, so people can get on there high horse

Of course, he was! Does scripture ever say that God is the God of Esau? Yet, Scripture does say that God is the God is not the God of the dead but only of the Living -- i.e. Abraham, Issac and Jacob (Mat 22:32). Moreover, Jacob, by divine decree, inherited the promises God made to Abraham and Issac. Whereas, Esau despised his birthright!

Each sin had to pierce Him on the Cross!!!!!!!!!!


God had to know each sin to pay for our sins.

When a Jew brought an animal to the temple? His sins had to be acknowledged. Known!

If some unbeliever lives to be ninety?
Each and every sin he will ever commit needed to be born by Jesus body, if a bedside conversion were able to take place.


in Christ ....................

I prefer to label "Calvinism" the Five Doctrines of Grace (a/k/a TULIP). Labels have their upsides and downsides. The big upside is they cut to the chase so they're expedient to use. The bigger downside (sadly) is all systems of systematic theology have some baggage, so if one says, "I'm a Calvinist", that leaves the door wide open for others criticize the entire system because they disagree on one or more points; yet they assume the Calvinist is whole hog in on every jot and tittle to Calvinism. Just as an interesting aside, I was sold hook, line and sinker on the Five Doctrines long before I became acquainted with Calvin -- just on the basis of biblical theology, and also because of my own salvation experience.

The phrase "the whole world" is not used in the distributive sense but in a limited sense, as often many universal terms are used in scrpture. Careful exegesis of the above text reveals two groups of people are in view: "our sins" -- and "the sins of the whole world" -- , both phrases separated by a "but" which denotes a contrast. Since "our sins" cannot logically or exegetically be included in "the sins of the whole world", then the only conclusion we can reach is this latter phrase is used in a restricted sense. In other words, this text does not and cannot prove universal or unlimited atonement. What the passage is really saying is that Christ atoned for the sins of Jews (to whom John was primarily writing) and for Gentiles,

OK then.. You are a proponent of TULIP.

That means that you enjoy arguing from an illogical position that you will present as an absolute.
And, will keep seeing the one not accepting your position as one who has an inferior intellect.

I have come to believe that TULIP believers crave to see themselves to be in a position of superior intellect.

And, that is where its appeal finds followers.

God's sovereignty whitewashes over a multitude of sins for those who make God's sovereignty into our point of contact with God.

Catholics have their blinded Mary worshippers, and Calvinists have their TULIP crowd.

Not at all. You never asked me a question. I believe God always acts sovereignly. I believe He purposes and what He purposes always comes to pass. I believe God is love and Christ is the manifestation of His love to those who are His own. But to those who God does not reveal Himself to, Christ is the manifestation of God's justice. The same word of God that has the power to save will one day convict all who do not believe.
I also believe God is much grander and more majestic in every way than most imagine. An infinite mind is far more capable than most understand. God feeds 8 million people a day. He knows the number of hairs on every head. He can speak and things which were not now are. He knows every star by name. There is nothing He doesn't know. And the way He is glorified is by revealing Himself. The more He is known, the more fully He is glorified. But He is equally glorified in any of His attributes. So He is just as glorified by revealing Himself as love as He is in revealing Himself as just.
This last truth doesn't always sit well with people. They understand how God is magnified in His love and mercy and grace, but shudder at the demonstration of His justice. You hear it all the time. How can a God of love pour out vengeance on people, forgetting God's hatred sin being so great He poured out His wrath on His own beloved Son? If He didn't spare His own Son, why would He spare sinful wretched flesh?
There's more to say but I despise long posts and would rather discuss things in a more conversational manner. But I am interested in your thoughts.

Right. But you initially said election concerned service. This is certainly true of Jesus who was a suffering servant. But it doesn't describe Abraham, Isaac, and particularly not Jacob. Election isn't about service. It's about God sovereignly choosing people to fulfill His purposes. That's why He specifically said He chose Jacob...that the purpose of God through election might stand...

Is God just?

Words matter to God. The word is only used 4 times. Period.

God did not direct his wrath towards His Son.

He directed His wrath towards our depraved state, and the Son volunteered to jump in to take the bullet so we could live.
It was towards our depravity. Not the Son.