What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

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DJT_47

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What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.

The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.

What is 'concupiscence'?

Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.

"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)

(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)

2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Romans 7:7-11

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

​
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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DJT_47 said:
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?​
​
Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.​
​
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.​
​
What is 'concupiscence'?​
​
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.​
​
"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)​
​
(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)​
​
2 Cor 12:7-10​
​
"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."​
​
Romans 7:7-11​
​
"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."​
​
​
Click to expand...


it seems that Paul’s obviously talking about an infirmity explaining he asked the lord to remove the infirmity but he said my grace is sufficient and it remained to keep Paul humble rather than exalting himself above others

“Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. ….And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12:5, 7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when a person is going through something tough a physical challenge , persecution of some kind they don’t deserve accusations ect ect that’s when we lean most on God when we’re more reaching out bc r him depending on him when we struggle he is strong in our behalf.

I’ve always thought Paul’s eyes became a problem for him and that is the thorn he spoke of that hindered his ministry for instance

“Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a remember Paul’s eyes grew scales when he saw Jesus he was blinded and thee days later receives his sight back it seems as if Paul also had to write in extraordinarily large letters which is more evidence that he may have had eye trouble at least at times to humble him given the great revelations God was giving the church through Paul

But it’s only a theory because you asked the question it does t really explicitly say only that it was some physical infirmity he struggles with to keep him humble
 
Artios1

Artios1

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2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.



The Word doesn’t give specifics …but from the context we know it was a messenger of satan to buffet.


Messenger = angelos … The messengers referred to in the scripture are either spirit messengers (angels) or human messengers… sent by God, satan, or people. From the context in verse 2Co 12:7 we might conclude this was a human messenger sent by satan. (Reference Num 33:55)


Buffet = beat up…. could be literal or figurative (as in verbally) …or both.
 
G

gb9

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some scholars say that Paul had a eye issue, that was the thron.

just wanted to throw that out there...
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

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gb9 said:
some scholars say that Paul had a eye issue, that was the thron.

just wanted to throw that out there...
Click to expand...
I agree.

Paul wrote this to the Galatians:

"Where is then the blessedness you spoke of? For I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me."
 
Mem

Mem

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Paul spoke about the thorn in his side following the context that he 'knows a man in Christ who about 14 years ago was raptured into the 3rd heaven, and whether in the body or out of the body only God knows.' That man he would boast about, but himself he would boast only in his weakness. Wasn't Paul speaking of himself in the 2nd person here? If so, I'm presuming that the former has no thorn (though Paul doesn't know whether it is because that man is in the body or out of the body). And then, Paul goes on to address the contention among them with concern for not only them but his own potential involvement in. Furthermore, since the thorn is meant to "keep him from becoming conceited' it seems it is to manage pride, which is the root of the majority of quarreling, rage, rivalry, slander, gossip, arrogance, or disorder, and Paul was

21...afraid that when I come again, my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of their acts of impurity, sexual immorality, and debauchery.

So, whatever Paul's thorn was, it was a reminder that he wasn't perfect, yet...
even if he is 'the best' among them and in no way inferior to those 'super-apostles,' "even though I am nothing (2 Cor 12:11)."
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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Sep 4, 2013
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#8
DJT_47 said:
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?​
​
Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.​
​
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.​
​
What is 'concupiscence'?​
​
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.​
​
"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)​
​
(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)​
​
2 Cor 12:7-10​
​
"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."​
​
Romans 7:7-11​
​
"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."​
​
​
Click to expand...
Pure speculation, but, hey, this is the BDF, soooo
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#9
gb9 said:
some scholars say that Paul had a eye issue, that was the thron.

just wanted to throw that out there...
Click to expand...

Some years ago, a guy came here stating that Paul was far or near sighted. His proof was when Paul said: Galatians, Chapter 6:11Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

The truth is, no one really knows, any thoughts/opinions are just that, and not Biblical Truth. But, hey, one day some of us will get to ask Paul himself! :)
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

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Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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p_rehbein said:
Some years ago, a guy came here stating that Paul was far or near sighted. His proof was when Paul said: Galatians, Chapter 6:11Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

The truth is, no one really knows, any thoughts/opinions are just that, and not Biblical Truth. But, hey, one day some of us will get to ask Paul himself! :)
Click to expand...
Indeed just speculation he does seem to say a lot in what he’s saying there however regarding the subject of his thorn

“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, ( he’s told us it’s purpose ) the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, ( he’s definately talking about an infirmity ) that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Therefore( this connects it to the prior thought ) I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12:7-10‬ ‭

regarding his eyes Paul makes reference that he had preached the gospel first at Galatia because of some infirmity

“know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:13-15‬ ‭

It seems as if he’s talking about an infirmity in his flesh body here as well and this last sentance seems a strange phrase if he’s not talking about the infirmity that has caused him to rest there and preach the gospel God can use things like disabilities to ring about his Will and when we recognize our weaknesses God is strong because of the humility and undersrsnd that without him we cannot

Your right it doesn’t really ever clearly say but does say an aweful lot about it so we do know a bit such as he’s talking about an infirmity in his flesh that was given to him In order that he didn’t become exceedingly boastful and exalt himself given his revelations

the weakness of eyes is just a logical guess given some of his language there and in other places not particularly speaking of writing large letters but a lot of circumstantial evidence such as Galatians 4

through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected….. for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:13-15‬ ‭

Just a guess however is all we could ever have
 
D

DJT_47

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#12
p_rehbein said:
Pure speculation, but, hey, this is the BDF, soooo
Click to expand...
The scriptures say what they say. What do they mean if not what they say? Tell me what Romans 7 means.
 
Blade

Blade

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"and by the excess of the revelations [wherefore] that not I might be exalted, was given to me a thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan, that me he might buffet that not I might be exalted." Org

Is it not also written in His word "that no flesh should glory in His presence". I like what one said "to stick a thorn in the foot is a most painful experience. Not to remove it to relieve the suffering is ordinarily unthinkable"

So many speculate about Paul's thorn be that "some illness of the eyes or epilepsy, others chronic attacks of malaria fever". Paul said a messenger of Satan brought the thorn and the spirit buffeted, meaning to beat, struck as with the fist.

I am human, I can make you a promise and break it but God simply can not. Some of the things I have heard over the years go against what God has already promised to those that believe. There is no "Except as provided by paragraph (3) In accordance with subsections 2-206 and 3-304 I can break My word".

I can't say anymore since it's not written, so it would be unwise for me to just run with speculation
 
Blade

Blade

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I waited to long to edit. I was looking again at Gal 4. One translates 4 13 "you know but that in the weakness of the flesh...." or calling it infirmity of the flesh by other translations yet in 2 Cor 12:7 he called it a thorn in the flesh. Remember to buffet, meaning to beat, struck as with a fist.

It seems if we believe it was some sickness "pain in the head or ear, epilepsy, convulsive attacks, eye trouble or Paul (according to William Ramsay) might have caught malaria in the mosquito malaria ridden area of low-lying Pamphylia. So to believe Paul was sick and asked for healing and God said no. That really helps some of us right? This kind of thinking goes against the word of God as in promises He already made to us that believe. Ask Him.. don't believe me

All this is why I said I don't run with speculation. That speculation becomes truth. I read it and then look how it was originally written and found in this case no one knows for sure. I can't just run with "buffet" because others translate that word differently.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Blade said:
Remember to buffet, meaning to beat, struck as with a fist.
Click to expand...
One can also be buffeted by ideas, e.g., those "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine."
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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DJT_47 said:
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.
Click to expand...
That is total nonsense. Romans 7:8 refers to Paul BEFORE he was converted. But Paul was actually in Heaven before he was afflicted with his "thorn in the flesh". And that was in fact a physical disability. How could he have been taken up to Heaven if he was still sinning?
 
Chester

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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DJT_47 said:
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?​
​
Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.​
​
The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.​
​
What is 'concupiscence'?​
​
Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.​
​
"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)​
​
(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)​
​
2 Cor 12:7-10​
​
"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."​
​
Romans 7:7-11​
​
"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."​
​
​
Click to expand...
This does not make good spiritual sense to me: that Paul's thorn in the flesh is concupiscense: and then as you define it "the desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure".

If you are right (and I am questioning this) then are you saying that Paul had a strong sexual lust problem - he prayed three times that God would take it away - and God did not take it away - and instead said - "my grace is sufficient for you."

Where does that leave Paul (and us)? He has a sexual lust problem: God says you will just have to live with it.

Please explain what you mean by this? Am I understanding what you are saying here?
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Well, whatever Paul's thorn in the flesh was.... I'm sure it hurt a bit and he got the point of it! :giggle:

If it was his eyes, I'm sure his eyes are absolutely beautiful and magnificent now in Heaven.... God is so faithful to recompense us for all our suffering on Earth! :love: (y)
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Chester said:
Please explain what you mean by this? Am I understanding what you are saying here?
Click to expand...
You are understanding this quite correctly. This poster is clueless about this matter. His theory is that Paul went to Paradise in an extremely SINFUL condition but that was OK with God. Then God told him to continue in that condition and God's grace would be sufficient -- FOR WHAT? How in the world do people come up with such rubbish?
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Nehemiah6 said:
That is total nonsense. Romans 7:8 refers to Paul BEFORE he was converted. But Paul was actually in Heaven before he was afflicted with his "thorn in the flesh". And that was in fact a physical disability. How could he have been taken up to Heaven if he was still sinning?
Click to expand...
Where does Scripture say when Paul's affliction started?
 
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