In the beginning

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#1
History has a beginning. Therefore, a logical inference can be drawn, ‘If there were nothing in the past, there would be nothing today. Hence, God is before.” Unlike pagan myths, philosophies, and theories, the Scriptures give a simple, concise account of creation. They bear the stamp of truth and provides a just and elevated view of God.

The idea of the word “in” means at the present time. Specifically, “in” implies, at that present time, this hour, minute, and very moment. “in” is limited by the word “beginning.” Therefore, when God spoke His first words, time began.

The beginning of the gospel dispensation.

The beginning of a Christian experience.

It sometimes speaks of persons, the first primus, as,

“The first and the last.”

“The beginning and the end.”

The word also speaks of dignity, the first place, power, or dominion. It gives the reader a sense of preeminence, precedence, or princedom.

Also, the abstract refers to rulers, magistrates, princes, persons of influence and authority, or civil rulers. The beginning, or first power, speaks of the princes or chiefs among angels, demons, and the powers of the underworld.

It also gives the idea of the commencement or beginning of things as we know them. There have been attempts to take the word beginning to mean the everlasting or eternity past. Not so! The word brings the idea of a starting point to the table, and eternity past has no beginning.

John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ).”

1 John 1, “That which was from the beginning, which we (the apostles) have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.”

John 1:4-14, “In him (Jesus) was life;” Verse 14, and that, “Word was made (become) flesh.”

John wrote that the apostles had heard and seen with their own eyes, looked upon, and handled the Lord Jesus, the Word of God.

The man Jesus presented Himself to us in our three higher senses: hearing, sight, and touch. To have handled is the proof of material reality. The Greek verb for “handled” means much more than to touch, to feel after, or to find.

This has been set up using the term ‘see, or seeing,’ used four times in the first three verses. Two different verbs for seeing are used. Horan (to see) and ‘theasthau;’ (to behold intelligently to signify what they were seeing.)

Translated, it would be, “The eternal Son who from eternity has entered time, we the apostles have not only handled as a material being, not only heard, not only seen with the physical eyes but have understood His meaning and significance.

1 John 1:2-3, John writes, “For the life was manifested.”

This phrase is the heart of the verse. The verb manifest in Greek indicates the fact of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The apostles could not have heard, seen, or handled the Lord; neither could they have had any knowledge of Christ’s eternal life with the Father unless the Father was willing to reveal this mystery to them in the person of his Son and the commission of the Holy Spirit. The mystery revealed is Jesus is

1 Timothy 3:16, K.J.B. “God manifest in the flesh.” Also, Matthew 1:23 says, “And they shall call the (Jesus) name, Immanuel, God with us.”
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#2
History has a beginning. Therefore, a logical inference can be drawn, ‘If there were nothing in the past, there would be nothing today. Hence, God is before.” Unlike pagan myths, philosophies, and theories, the Scriptures give a simple, concise account of creation. They bear the stamp of truth and provides a just and elevated view of God.
Amen. All those genealogies contain the names of real people, and they can be utilized to compose a real timeline. People who question God's account of the creation of the universe usually end up questioning the validity of the genealogical timeline as well.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#3
The idea of the word “in” means at the present time. Specifically, “in” implies, at that present time, this hour, minute, and very moment. “in” is limited by the word “beginning.” Therefore, when God spoke His first words, time began.
That conclusion is a logical non sequitur. Are you claiming that from everlasting until creation began no member of the divine Trinity said a single word? Or do you mean that our particular world's time began when God said, "Let there be light" ?
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
1,193
433
83
Pennsylvania
#4
Creation does have a beginning for man and everyone should know the revolution of the year.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#5
Creation does have a beginning for man and everyone should know the revolution of the year.
Creation also has a beginning for God. And God was already everlastingly extant before He created anything of our cosmos.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#6
That conclusion is a logical non sequitur. Are you claiming that from everlasting until creation began no member of the divine Trinity said a single word? Or do you mean that our particular world's time began when God said, "Let there be light" ?
Paul wrote, "Or do you mean that our particular world's time began when God said, "Let there be light" ?

That's the one!
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,744
6,913
113
#7
God is the Alpha and the Omega! He IS, WAS, and always WILL BE! No beginning, no end. Hard to understand? Probably, as we are attuned to all things having a beginning and an end, but GOD IS, and that is the Truth.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#8
The following is for discussion only. I would like to see how others read and understand these verses.

K.J.B. Genesis 1:4-5, "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night." Concerning the two verses, I noticed,

1. God divides the light from the darkness.
2. He calls the light good but not the darkness.
3. He calls the light' Day,' notice the upper case, and he calls the darkness' Night;' again, notice the upper case for Night.

If we compare the above with verse 18, which speaks of a literal 24-hour day and night, both 'day and night' are in lowercase.
We also know the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth day so the light spoken of in the above cannot be coming from them.

So, what does the upper case signify? Usually, a noun like 'Day," when in upper case, would direct us to a title or specific characteristic, such as Jesus being called the Word, the Light, the Son of God, King, etc.

My question is, could the Day in Genesis 1 be speaking of the Shekinah glory, the presence of Jehovah? And the upper case 'Night' a clue that evil was already present?

In certain verses, believers are called 'children of the day,' others called "children of the night or children of darkness.'
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#9
Paul wrote, "Or do you mean that our particular world's time began when God said, "Let there be light" ?

That's the one!
I don’t believe God has a beginning. He is eternal backwards and forward! Notice in the book of Exodus, 3-13-15:

Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'

Our Farher “Who art in heaven“ is eternal; He has has no beginning and no end—“for Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#10
The following is for discussion only. I would like to see how others read and understand these verses.

K.J.B. Genesis 1:4-5, "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night." Concerning the two verses, I noticed,

1. God divides the light from the darkness.
2. He calls the light good but not the darkness.
3. He calls the light' Day,' notice the upper case, and he calls the darkness' Night;' again, notice the upper case for Night.

If we compare the above with verse 18, which speaks of a literal 24-hour day and night, both 'day and night' are in lowercase.
We also know the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth day so the light spoken of in the above cannot be coming from them.

So, what does the upper case signify? Usually, a noun like 'Day," when in upper case, would direct us to a title or specific characteristic, such as Jesus being called the Word, the Light, the Son of God, King, etc.

My question is, could the Day in Genesis 1 be speaking of the Shekinah glory, the presence of Jehovah? And the upper case 'Night' a clue that evil was already present?

In certain verses, believers are called 'children of the day,' others called "children of the night or children of darkness.'
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

- 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
864
346
63
#11
My question is, could the Day in Genesis 1 be speaking of the Shekinah glory, the presence of Jehovah? And the upper case 'Night' a clue that evil was already present?
Yes. The darkness is a created darkness, and It's over the abyss.
Gen~~In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Satans fall) Now the earth was/became formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


וַיֵּ֥ט מֹשֶׁ֛ה אֶת־יָד֖וֹ עַל־הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם וַיְהִ֧י חֹֽשֶׁךְ־אֲפֵלָ֛ה בְּכׇל־אֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרַ֖יִם שְׁלֹ֥שֶׁת יָמִֽים׃

Moses held out his arm toward the sky and thick darkness descended(same darkness as Gen 1) upon all the land of Egypt for three days.

לֹֽא־רָא֞וּ אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־אָחִ֗יו וְלֹא־קָ֛מוּ אִ֥ישׁ מִתַּחְתָּ֖יו שְׁלֹ֣שֶׁת יָמִ֑ים

People could not see one another, and for three days no one could get up from where he was; (Exodus 10:22-23).

Over the deep~~
tehom: deep, sea, abyss
Original Word: תְּהוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: tehom
Phonetic Spelling: (teh-home')
Definition: deep, sea, abyss

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, vain, vanity, waste,
Or thom {teh-home'}; (usually feminine) from huwm; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply) -- deep (place), depth.

see HEBREW huwm

Luke 8~~ 30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. 31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

abussos: boundless, bottomless
Original Word: ἄβυσσος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: abussos
Phonetic Spelling: (ab'-us-sos)
Definition: boundless, bottomless
Usage: the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
#12
History has a beginning. Therefore, a logical inference can be drawn, ‘If there were nothing in the past, there would be nothing today. Hence, God is before.” Unlike pagan myths, philosophies, and theories, the Scriptures give a simple, concise account of creation. They bear the stamp of truth and provides a just and elevated view of God.

The idea of the word “in” means at the present time. Specifically, “in” implies, at that present time, this hour, minute, and very moment. “in” is limited by the word “beginning.” Therefore, when God spoke His first words, time began.

The beginning of the gospel dispensation.

The beginning of a Christian experience.

It sometimes speaks of persons, the first primus, as,

“The first and the last.”

“The beginning and the end.”

The word also speaks of dignity, the first place, power, or dominion. It gives the reader a sense of preeminence, precedence, or princedom.

Also, the abstract refers to rulers, magistrates, princes, persons of influence and authority, or civil rulers. The beginning, or first power, speaks of the princes or chiefs among angels, demons, and the powers of the underworld.

It also gives the idea of the commencement or beginning of things as we know them. There have been attempts to take the word beginning to mean the everlasting or eternity past. Not so! The word brings the idea of a starting point to the table, and eternity past has no beginning.

John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ).”

1 John 1, “That which was from the beginning, which we (the apostles) have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.”

John 1:4-14, “In him (Jesus) was life;” Verse 14, and that, “Word was made (become) flesh.”

John wrote that the apostles had heard and seen with their own eyes, looked upon, and handled the Lord Jesus, the Word of God.

The man Jesus presented Himself to us in our three higher senses: hearing, sight, and touch. To have handled is the proof of material reality. The Greek verb for “handled” means much more than to touch, to feel after, or to find.

This has been set up using the term ‘see, or seeing,’ used four times in the first three verses. Two different verbs for seeing are used. Horan (to see) and ‘theasthau;’ (to behold intelligently to signify what they were seeing.)

Translated, it would be, “The eternal Son who from eternity has entered time, we the apostles have not only handled as a material being, not only heard, not only seen with the physical eyes but have understood His meaning and significance.

1 John 1:2-3, John writes, “For the life was manifested.”

This phrase is the heart of the verse. The verb manifest in Greek indicates the fact of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The apostles could not have heard, seen, or handled the Lord; neither could they have had any knowledge of Christ’s eternal life with the Father unless the Father was willing to reveal this mystery to them in the person of his Son and the commission of the Holy Spirit. The mystery revealed is Jesus is

1 Timothy 3:16, K.J.B. “God manifest in the flesh.” Also, Matthew 1:23 says, “And they shall call the (Jesus) name, Immanuel, God with us.”
Good read thanks for taking the time to post it
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
#13
The following is for discussion only. I would like to see how others read and understand these verses.

K.J.B. Genesis 1:4-5, "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night." Concerning the two verses, I noticed,

1. God divides the light from the darkness.
2. He calls the light good but not the darkness.
3. He calls the light' Day,' notice the upper case, and he calls the darkness' Night;' again, notice the upper case for Night.

If we compare the above with verse 18, which speaks of a literal 24-hour day and night, both 'day and night' are in lowercase.
We also know the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth day so the light spoken of in the above cannot be coming from them.

So, what does the upper case signify? Usually, a noun like 'Day," when in upper case, would direct us to a title or specific characteristic, such as Jesus being called the Word, the Light, the Son of God, King, etc.

My question is, could the Day in Genesis 1 be speaking of the Shekinah glory, the presence of Jehovah? And the upper case 'Night' a clue that evil was already present?

In certain verses, believers are called 'children of the day,' others called "children of the night or children of darkness.'
J.B. Genesis 1:4-5, "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."

i think if we start at verse one it helps

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the beginning was the Word,

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world,

and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Light and dark

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-11, 13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think he’s dividing darkness and light throughout all creation by the gospel and there will be no night or darkness in eternity when his plan which was set in motion from the beginning is completed

“And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#14
Paul wrote, "Or do you mean that our particular world's time began when God said, "Let there be light" ?

That's the one!
So time existed before our world began, but our world's time had no existence until it began.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#15
God is the Alpha and the Omega! He IS, WAS, and always WILL BE! No beginning, no end. Hard to understand? Probably, as we are attuned to all things having a beginning and an end, but GOD IS, and that is the Truth.
You just said "He IS, WAS, and WILL BE", and then concluded "but God IS, and that's the truth." But God says He WAS, and IS and WILL BE.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#16
Yes. The darkness is a created darkness, and It's over the abyss.
Gen~~In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Satans fall) Now the earth was/became formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


וַיֵּ֥ט מֹשֶׁ֛ה אֶת־יָד֖וֹ עַל־הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם וַיְהִ֧י חֹֽשֶׁךְ־אֲפֵלָ֛ה בְּכׇל־אֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרַ֖יִם שְׁלֹ֥שֶׁת יָמִֽים׃

Moses held out his arm toward the sky and thick darkness descended(same darkness as Gen 1) upon all the land of Egypt for three days.

לֹֽא־רָא֞וּ אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־אָחִ֗יו וְלֹא־קָ֛מוּ אִ֥ישׁ מִתַּחְתָּ֖יו שְׁלֹ֣שֶׁת יָמִ֑ים

People could not see one another, and for three days no one could get up from where he was; (Exodus 10:22-23).

Over the deep~~
tehom: deep, sea, abyss
Original Word: תְּהוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: tehom
Phonetic Spelling: (teh-home')
Definition: deep, sea, abyss

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, vain, vanity, waste,
Or thom {teh-home'}; (usually feminine) from huwm; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply) -- deep (place), depth.

see HEBREW huwm

Luke 8~~ 30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. 31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

abussos: boundless, bottomless
Original Word: ἄβυσσος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: abussos
Phonetic Spelling: (ab'-us-sos)
Definition: boundless, bottomless
Usage: the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits.
Kroogz, I wish I could shake your hand, finally found someone who has researched the subject.
Let me ask you a question concerning "Without form and void." The identical phrase is found in Jeremiah 4:23. His comments are directed at his people for their evil and lack of knowledge.

Now, the phrase in Genesis "without form and void" is there a possibility it was directed at Lucifer and those who followed him to the earth, where confusion reigned, because it was without God until God said, "Let there be light." My research tells me it is.

There are other reasons, the abyss in Genesis 1 has a twofold meaning. The bottom of the ocean, or the gates of hell. The word darkness usually means without light, no sun, darkness prevails. So, because here was no sun, moon or stars, the statement makes no sense.

In the case of Genesis, darkness is the Hebrew word "cha-shack," which means, "Obscurity, spiritual blindness, gross ignorance, low, base, vile, the region of the dead, the blindness, or darkness of hell.

Also, when the LORD told Adam about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we know He did not create evil, and Adam hadn't sinned yet. But obviously evil existed because he warns Adam about it. All it can mean is the devil was already on the earth.

Lastly, the darkness is said to be in the deep, and the Holy Spirit moved on the surface of the water. And God divided the light from the darkness, dividing good from evil.
Your thoughts. May not get back to you today, have to go out.