June 10th, 1967

Now you're mixing up Paul's FIRST letter to the Thessies with that of his SECOND letter to the Thessies, and [pre-] SUPPOSING that he's addressing the SAME ISSUE [/problem-needing-addressed in their understanding], which simply isn't so. If that were the case, he could've just said, hey folks, please RE-READ that [first] letter I already sent to you, you'll find the proper thing to believe/understand THERE.


He doesn't say that, because in his SECOND letter, he's addressing a DIFFERENT ISSUE [/problem-needing-addressed]... the LATER matter of a "FALSE CLAIM" by false claimants "purporting THAT the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]"...

....NOT that JESUS HIMSELF is already present...

...NOT that the RAPTURE is already present...

...NOT that the KINGDOM-AGE is already present...


[the FALSE CLAIM of v.2 is not speaking of ANY OF THOSE]


...but "that THE DAY OF THE LORD [earthly TIME-PERIOD OF JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--i.e. THE TRIBULATION PERIOD] IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]<----THIS was the FALSE CLAIM (v.2) that Paul is needing to address here in this SECOND LETTER.






Notice that in the INTRO to this 2nd letter to them (unlike in his 1st letter to them, and in his other letters), Paul LEAVES OFF the word "HOPE" in the INTRO of the letter... because in this second letter, the matter was that "A FALSE CLAIM"--verse 2--was [or had the potential to] existing/-ed as a cause of making them "WAIL" verse 2 - "STRONGS G2360: θροέω, -ῶ: (θροός clamor, tumult); in Greek writings to cry aloud, make a noise by outcry; in the N. T. to trouble, frighten; passive present θροοῦμαι to be troubled in mind, to be frightened, alarmed"... "properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)." - VERSE 2.


... not the matter of being "sorrowful" as in his FIRST letter to them.


This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MATTER he is addressing here (in his second letter).

You are conflating the two letters.

No one is denying that "the Church which is His body" HAS BEEN experiencing "tribulation" (and troubles / suffering / persecution) ever since its coming into existence in the first century (SEE 2Thess1:4 showing us the Thessies were ALREADY EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" [the context/setting of this second letter]--this is what made the "false claim" in 2:2 entirely "believable!" THEY HAD EVIDENCE [visibly and experientially!] 1:4!!); IOW, we are not waiting for the future "7-year period" IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE it!






But what we're talking about here (instead) is "the Day of the Lord" (JUDGMENTs from God unfolding upon the earth, over SOME TIME--the 7-yr period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)...

It involves His "WRATH" (just as the 70ad events involved His "wrath"--Lk21:20,23... Matt22:7) but now (at that future time) on a grander scale, and a wider path (on the whole world / all mankind / them that 'dwell upon' the earth)...

and he'll be using "the man of sin / antichrist" to execute [God's] JUDGMENT upon the earth at that time (the 7-yrs leading UP TO Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19).

The VIALS are just one aspect of that "wrath" ("for IN THEM [in the Vials] the WRATH of God IS COMPLETED [not, is STARTED AND completed, NO!]");

Additionally, the "wrath" of Satan commences at MID-Trib (Rev12:12c), and 1Th1:10/5:9a informs that "the Church which is His body" (that's US) will be delivered prior to ANY "wrath" which will occur then ("the One delivering us OUT-FROM the WRATH COMING"--meaning, WE will NOT experience one second of it!), and those verses don't specify "only God's wrath" (though ALL of the "SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS" are His "wrath" [THE DAY OF THE LORD]--and He'll even be USING "man" and "a 'CERTAIN' man" TO CARRY [MUCH OF] IT OUT).

we have nothing to do with God's wrath ... we will be gone agone

"the man of sin" will not have anything to do with God's wrath except he will be the first to taste of it. He will be slain by the brightness and the coming of our Lord when He comes to gather us.

Jesus comes to reign.

All else that happens after He has come is a massive mopping up exercise, all the nations who came up with Antichrist to Jerusalem, all those who received his mark.

The Jews will reign from Jerusalem through Christ for a 1, 000 years converting the nations. It will be GLORIOUS.

Before all this happens we will suffer tribulation and persecution as you say and that last final rebellion and the great tribulation.

2 Thess. 2. is about the rapture. "That day and the day of the Lord" refers to His coming to gather the church.

The "Day of the Lord" is 1, 000 years. It is the start of the Millennium. Yes it begins with the catching away of the church and the slaying of Antichrist and all those who have joined him.

The great and terrible day of the Lord comes after the 1, 000 years with the 2nd resurrection unto judgement.

If the Holy Spirit is removed along with us how can anyone left on earth be saved? Without the Holy Spirit evangelizing won't work.

You also keep mistaking the great tribulation for God's wrath. The great tribulation is actually Satan's wrath against God and His people. God's wrath comes AFTER the great tribulation.

God doesn't make mistakes, if we are still here when the antichrist and the great tribulation appears, that means we are capable through God to endure to the end. And why must we do that? To be a witness to the unsaved. That's how people will get saved in the great tribulation. I know you're going to say that the two witnesses and 144,000 are going to do that but that's an incredibly small group to reach the entire world. No, we'll be doing that too.

I know it's a scary idea to have to go through the great tribulation, but if you let God prepare you for it, you won't be afraid to face the persecution and death that's to come.


🏂

Well, Joel 2:31's "moon into blood" sure sounds a lot like Seal #6's (Rev6:12) "moon became as blood" which falls within the "in quickness [noun]" time period that 1:1/1:19c/4:1 speaks of (i.e. within the 7-yr Trib, and in fact, within the FIRST HALF of it, i.e. "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect of it [that is, BEFORE the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr Trib, which is specifically called "the GREAT Tribulation" Rev7:14 (Matt24:[15,]16,20,21)]);






Additionally, it is interesting to note that another place where scripture uses the phrase "great and terrible" is found in Deut1:19 and Deut8:15, where the phrase (in both) is "great and terrible wilderness":

Deu 1:19
And when we departed H5265 from Horeb, H2722 we went through H3212 all that great H1419 and terrible H3372 wilderness, H4057 which ye saw H7200 by the way H1870 of the mountain H2022 of the Amorites, H567 as the LORD H3068 our God H430 commanded H6680 us; and we came H935 to Kadeshbarnea. H6947

Deu 8:15
Who led H3212 thee through that great H1419 and terrible H3372 wilderness, H4057 wherein were fiery H8314 serpents, H5175 and scorpions, H6137 and drought, H6774 where there was no water; H4325 who brought thee forth H3318 water H4325 out of the rock H6697 of flint; H2496


... so, in view of this, I find it more akin to the "wilderness" [time-frame] of Rev12:6,14 [/Matt24:16,20's instruction for them (which be in Judaea) to "FLEE" corresponding--"FLED into the wilderness" v.6; "FLY into the wilderness" v.14], which part of the chronology falls within the "in quickness [noun]" time period also (i.e. within the Trib yrs)... in fact, at MID-Trib, just when they are to flee "to the wilderness" (for protection from the effects of the SECOND HALF of the 7 year Trib)...

... rather than sounding anything like what we read regarding the end of (or "AFTER") the Millennial Kingdom age (Rev20:7-9).




So I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint. = )

It's not like the 144,000 will witness for 7 years and no one becomes a believer [/fellow-witness] until all of a sudden at the LAST MOMENT of the Trib years, when Christ is ready to return to the earth (Rev19) EVERYONE (who's going to "believe") SUDDENLY trusts Christ at the last millisecond ... before it's too late. NO. I believe you are picturing this all wrong.


The 144,000 are "firstfruit" [parallel of the 2nd of TWO "firstfruit" mentioned in Lev23] of a greater "harvest"... i.e. the number of "believers" will GROW throughout the Trib years; not be a sudden thing only occurring at the END of those years. They will be "witnesses" ALSO, see.

[Paul is a "TYPE" of the 144,000]

It's not going to happen the way you're picturing it (which is really strange, honestly).

WE are still going to be here on earth reaching the unsaved through the power of the Holy Spirit who will be present in us on earth. It's not just the 144,000 and the two witnesses who will be evangelizing. We're not special snowflakes that we escape these perilous times.

Us going through persecution and death before all the unsaved is a testimony to Jesus, that He is truly powerful to keep us strong through it all to endure to the end. It will encourage many of the unsaved to turn to the Lord during that time, just like all the persecutions and martyrdom of Christians down through the centuries.


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2ndTimeIstheCharm, you wrote, "How is that even possible for people to come to a saving knowledge when pre-tribbers believe that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth????

You do not have to agree with the following but consider it. Let's say the bride of Christ is raptured and the Holy Spirit are taken before the 7-years of tribulation begins. There will be billions of people left behind, both Jews and Gentiles.

The following will occur when the second half of the tribulation begins. The 2ed beast will have been made known, the first beasts deadly wound will have been healed, the two witnesses will have been killed, then resurrected, and taken to heaven.

Here is what this second beast is going to do. "He will cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Now ask yourself, what happens to those, Jew and Gentile who reject the mark?

Revelation 20:4 tells us. John sees that they "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark," These are raised when the tribulation is over, and will, "live and reign with Christ a thousand years."

What happens to those who took the mark and worshiped the image of the beast? Revelation 20:5 tells us. These will not be raise "Until the thousand years are finished." Most will be killed by the Lord in what is called his "day of vengeance." 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and Romans 12:19 and Isaiah 63:4, The Lord is speaking, "For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

And when these people who received the mark or worshipped the image are raised in the great white throne judgment, the books are opened, and they are judged. These are cast into the lake of fire; this is called the second death.

It's so simple, I have no idea why people make it so complicated.

You're assuming that those who reject the mark are saved. I happened to have known plenty of people who would rather die than take the covid vaccine who didn't want to make Jesus their Lord and Savior (and so be saved) during the pandemic. The same thing will happen when the mark of the beast is instituted.

No, rejecting the mark isn't saying yes to Jesus for salvation. You would still need the Holy Spirit because as you know, most believers will die, but some God will keep alive through the whole ordeal (I personally would rather die and be with God as soon as possible ). Everyone of us will need the Holy Spirit's sustaining strength. So all the people who get saved during the great tribulation will have the Holy Spirit because He will have never left. That means we'll still be here too.


🏂

You are misapplying the "[shall] endure to the end" passages, by applying it to "us" ('the Church which is His body') RATHER THAN to whom these passages actually apply (i.e. those TWO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [on the earth]).

Consider (you are incorrectly placing yourself [and "us / the Church which is His body"] in the "YE" of the following passages):

Mat 10:22-23 [but also read verses 5-7, to note its CONTEXT and what it is saying there] -

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.



Mat 24:13-14 -
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom [see Matt26:13] shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations [see Rev7:9,14 its RESULTS; etc]; and then shall the end come.



Mar 13:13-14 -

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains [same as in Rev12 where "the WOMAN" is shown to be the one to "flee / fled / fly [into the wilderness]"... that is NOT US!]:



[we are exhorted to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth" ]

1) a FAR GREATER "impetus" is that "our Rapture" will have just taken place (ALL of the "light bulbs" will have been taken OUT OF THIS WORLD!), at which time, many of Israel will have their "light bulb moment!" (BECAUSE of "our Rapture"--one of its PURPOSES [not "snow-flaky" reasons!]--to be an impetus for Israel to come to faith in their Messiah, JESUS CHRIST!)

The Church which is His body has been "persecuted" (even experienced "martyrdom") THROUGHOUT its existence for some near-2000 YEARS (we are not WAITING for the 7-yr period IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE IT. No.)

But the believing remnant of Israel (who WILL be coming to faith WITHIN / IN / DURING the Trib years), these are "the least of these My brethren" that Matt25:40,45's CONTEXT is concerning, meaning, those of the nations who BLESS/aid them (in their affliction [Hos5:14-6:3]--the persecution OF THEM in the 7-yr period) will themselves BE CALLED "ye BLESSED" by our Lord; and those of the nations who DO NOT (will NOT have aided/blessed them, in those years) will be called by our Lord, "ye CURSED"

...(recall the "BLESS" / "CURSE" passages from OT and what those pertain to)...

but "the least of these My brethren" in that Matt25 passage is NOT who are BEING "judged / separated" in that context
(those "of the nationS" are--thus the passage saying about the believing remnant of Israel [at that future time-period], "YE shall be hated of all the nationS for My name's sake"--Matt24:9--in the section regarding "the BEGINNING of birth pangS" which ARE "the SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the "in quickness [noun]" time period [Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1] that IS the 7-yr Trib [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], those 7-yrs leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age ["when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN "the meal [G347]" i.e. the MK age])

I don't agree, but I'm already bored of the subject. We all know that neither one of us is going to change our minds.

I'm wondering though, do you think all this will happen in our lifetime? Since you're pre-trib, I know you think it can happen at any moment, but is there something to make you think that it is within our lifetime? How soon do you think? That is something we might be able to agree upon.


🏂

2Tim3:1 is addressed to the Church which is His body (us), and says, "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."

That whole context is referring to what will occur PRIOR TO "our Rapture" (not after it, when we are NOT here).

So, no one is making the point that we will AVOID [by means of the "rapture"] the "PERILOUS TIMES" being referred to in that whole context... no, the passage is saying the Church which is His body will STILL BE HERE ON THE EARTH when "perilous times" shall come, being covered there in that passage.

Not escaping them. But BEING HERE for those (per the context).

It actually gets worse during the great tribulation, but I'm past that already.

Anyway, do you think all this will happen in this lifetime, including your pre-trib rapture?


🏂

Here's a post I made on that... I've made a few posts saying this same thing, but here's this brief post:

Post #7 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...-left-until-the-year-6000.194147/post-4344407


Notice especially what I put in the SECOND PARAGRAPH of my post there, at link... what I said there, I'm still sticking with!
(that paragraph is where you'll find my answer to this question you are posing to me )

That post / paragraph there is very brief, but at back of it is years'-worth of my study on that Subject (nearly 50 years' study)... so I'm not saying what I say there because of any kind of "newspaper exegesis" (as some suggest), or what my eyeballs think they are seeing "out there" happening in the world (etc), but based upon real, biblical study (that's what I've based my conclusions on, instead).



Hope that helps you see my perspective on that. = )

So you think around 2026 or a few years more than that year? That's something to watch! Could you please tell me how you came to that conclusion based on your Bible study? Because to me, the timing of when it starts happening isn't clear to me and I don't even know where to start in the Bible to figure that out.

I've just got a book from Amazon (when it was free) to help me gauge it (Click on title or author name to see its webpage on Amazon):



I haven't gone through it yet. But hopefully I will get to read it soon (I have other stuff I'm reading before it). It's summary is human history lasting 7,000 years where at the 6,000 year mark, the Lord will come back and reign for the last 1,000 years which is the Millennial Age. And according to the author, we're close to that 6,000 year mark.


🏂

The mid-trib position has much going for it.

Matthew. 24. 9.
Then they shall deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake ...

I believe the most of the church will be martyred.

Precious friend, much, but not enough to cancel post-pre-wrath, eh? :

Q: which of these would be "Catching Up Of The ONE Body Of Christ"...?



...Which, of course,
engaging 'opponents' is pre-trib God's Great GRACE Departure!
. .. . . . . .. . . . Amen? ♫ 😇 ↑ See you ↑ There ↑?

Love you, Precious brother -

Grace And Peace.

blessings

Tribulation comes from man
"they shall deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death."
God's wrath will be upon the tribulators

Revelation 11:
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.