Ephesians 6:12 A biblical perspective.

Isn't communicating with people we don't know over written format funny sometimes, I presumed when the fifth angel sounded and you saw that when the star fall from heaven to earth, that the war in heaven had just happened.
Then when you have raked me over the coals for my presumption, I presumed that my presumption must have been incorrect.
But it turns out that is what you believe?
Actually I'm just really confused, and will try not to presume anything and just stick to what I believe haha

There are more reason's I think the bible shows us the war happened earlier. First off I think both references to the casting out of the 1/3 angels in Revelation are referring to the same thing, The bible so often does this I'm used to reading the bible this way.

Recapitulation begins in Genesis which first started training me to read the bible not strictly chronological, as it gives more than one perspective of events, and there seems to be an unspoken rule to let everything be established by two or three witnesses.

Reading the bible this way also trains us to see apparent contradictions, and then harmonise them to see truths, that those who ar critics of inspiration will dismiss out of hand.

So to me.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born

And

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Are the same event just two sides of the same coin, that give a complete picture.

So I read the timing of this event as to devour the child the moment He was born, which can be none other than Christ. So the timing of the event is just over two thousand years ago.

It ties in with the demonic activity throughout the gospels and ties in with other verses.

We have the seventy who have gone out and cast out demons return to the Lord saying that the demons are subject to them

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

The Lord responds with of course they are for Satan has been thrown out of heaven

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

and the Lord continues on to say because this has happened these demons are subject to you.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The context is present tense, the context of the words I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven is past tense, there is no future tense in these verses.

Also if one does not see that the war in heaven as described as on a coin with two sides, then that would mean there are two times in heaven, that a great event is mirrored and the one third of angels are flung to the earth twice over 2000yrs apart which makes no sense to me.

Here is my understanding, @Clayman . . . Chapter 12 might be a tad confusing because it talks about the past and the future.

Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
So we read in verses 1 and 2 about this woman who is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars. This woman symbolizes Israel and her 12 sons (stars) and their descendants through whom would come the Messiah. This brings to mind Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9. In this verse, the woman hasn't yet given birth to the Messiah.

Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The “great red dragon” is Satan. This event of Satan’s tail drawing the third part of the stars happened before the foundation of the world. The woman here symbolizes Mary who gave birth to our Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This event is not the same event as the one we read about in verses 3 and 4. Here, Satan and his angels get cast out of heaven down to the earth by Michael. This is talking about the end times when Satan will appear as the Antichrist right here on earth (in Jerusalem) disguised as Jesus and claiming to be God.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

—selah

Thanks, love it when people present there understandings.

Totally agree. If I can add some more observations.

The word "appeared" is the Greek word "optomai" and can mean something that is seen, for example, and "they shall see" the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and the word "wonder" is the word "Semeion" which can mean something supernatural and is often translated elsewhere as "miracle". So to me a great supernatural event here was seen in heaven in other words it was seen by those in heaven(angels)

Some commentators who don't agree with our view that Israel is the woman seen here have put forth an argument like it could not be Israel for Israel could not appear in heaven, yet they miss understand the context and the meaning of the words. For example,
If it was said, a great sight has appeared in Tokyo, a rare event called a blood moon was seen there last week, It's not saying the moon must therefor be in Tokyo, its saying those in Tokyo could see the the red moon.
Yes, and if I can again add to this, There has happened a great supernatural event and it was seen by those in heaven, A great, or the word I would have used is "momentous" something momentous has just happened. To me one of the great momentous events of our history would be that God became a man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He lowered himself a little lower than the angels.

Is this described in the timing? Sure it is and as I agree with the timing of it being before Mary gives birth, we are given even more precise timing and no wonder this is one of the greatest events of our history, our savior has come, and it shows the timing of it was at the time Israel/Mary was pregnant, we can see by the words "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth"

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Some verses that those who are pro abortion should think upon.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.



We have just looked at the first wonder which was a great wonder, and now there is a second wonder that appears, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven" First the obvious the word great is not here, this is not a great wonder it has nothing on the wonder of the incarnate Christ, and the word another is here, which shows us this second wonder follows the first wonder,

Yet the word great is still used, it describes a great red dragon having seven heads and 10 horns and seven horns upon his heads which shows that Satan has evolved from that serpent of old who appeared in the beginning to the dragon who is the great ruler of the world. In other words Satan is described here is in his last days wonder or form, a mighty dragon a ruler of the empires, I don't see a pre creation entity being described here.

Also the timing is precise, we have already seen that Mary had become with child, and here the dragon after the one third angels are cast to earth, stands before the woman for to devour the child as soon as its born. I see a few commentators relate this to Herod, giving the order to kill all the children under the age of two, as being directed by Satan, I have no reason to disagree with this?

This is why I relate the sin of the angels to a rejection of the man Jesus Christ, I have more to say on it but another time maybe.

Also this ties in with God sending serpents amongst Israel, the serpents bit people who would die unless they look up the bronze serpent that is erected upon a pole(Jesus the cross)

Just to clarify, you have Satan casting down one third of the angels pre creation? Then Satan and one third of the angels being cast out by Michael by the two thirds of angels in the future? Are they the same group of angels as from before the foundation of the world who go back with Satan to heaven to war or is it another third of the angels who are currently in heaven and are falsely worshipping God and singing worthy of all honor and praise is our Lord?

Who are the demons in the gospel accounts, I mean where did they come from in your way of seeing things, for example are they those that were cast down to earth before the foundation of the world? Thanks, I'm revising my understanding that most people here just play the man and not the ball.

Just so you understand my position, on Thes 2 While I do see the the Antichrist, the man of sin, as the beast that rises up out of the sea(peoples), and that he is just a man, who brings peace and signs a 7yr peace treaty and stuff, I see this is happening during the tribulation which means I also see Satan as there and eventually indwelling the Antichrist.

Maybe someone has posted this, I am late in this thread but ;

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Yes the devil is here NOW and ;

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Also Jesus and his disciples did cast out demons...

Just to clarify so you understand where I'm coming from, I believe that at the time Jesus died at the cross coincides with Satan being temporarily being cast out of the earth.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

For example with regards to Judas in John 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him "what you do, do quickly"

I am also of the opinion that Satan and the fallen angels, have no choice in obeying the Lord, as they are different to man, maybe I'll explain another time, but if Jesus said to Satan into the lake of fire you go, that's how easy it would be, I don't believe there is a great power struggle over the earth between God and Satan to me that notion is incredulous, so to my point; the Lord would have known when Satan entered into him, and then he gave a command not just to Judas but also to Satan; so the Lord used Satan as a tool to accomplish his purpose which was orchestrated before the foundation of the world.

Yes, Jesus and his disciples did cast demons out, I think I my be missing the point of why you are saying this, also the point of posting the verses Matt 4 and 1pet 5:8 has maybe gone straight over my head, unless you are just agreeing with me or wanting me to give my thoughts on the verses or something?

But 1pet 5:8 is an interesting verse the bible seems to contradict itself by saying in a few places the devil is no longer in the world, yet some read this verse saying he is still active, so we have to harmonise scriptures as only one can be literally true, don't take this the wrong way but I'm already presuming you have applied a metaphoric understanding to 1pet 5:8 as I think most people have. As I also see Satan a pattern of sin, we can see sin devouring people all over the place.

I understand what you are saying, but my opinion is different then yours I see the verse in another way, remember in the book of JOB, satan went back and forth from earth and heaven before the throne of GOD to accuse humanity especially JOB as it is written;

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there isnone like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

I think that when Jesus said;

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

the minute judgment was passed, satan was cut off, cast out from heaven and GOD forever. He is still here on this earth, testing and corrupting everything he can to destroy us all. As it is easy to see today, the world's corruption is increasing an a frightening rate just like the time of Noah men's evil deeds are now common. the facts are here his corrupting influences can be seen and felt.

As for the verse I quoted from 1 peter 5:8, I see no contradiction in this verse unless you meant contradiction in the whole of 1 peter? Unless I am wrong, it was written after Jesus's resurrection thus point to the fact that the devil is still here at this time.

It is my opinion based from the little i know of scripture.

Peace.

Thanks, Interesting view for sure I don't see Satan as going back and forth from heaven to earth to the throne of God in the book of Job, I see the book of Job as saying Satan goes back and forth upon the earth.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Also when Satan ascends to heaven I see it as a one off event, In Isaiah the event appears to be a future one, and indicates that it would be a sin for Satan to do so.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

You may find my take on these verses interesting or just flat out different.

Like a lot of parents today, when Job saw his kids he desired the best for them and his thoughts seem to be having his children right with God first and foremost as one of his concerns was that they may have sinned.

So sometimes Job would send for them so he could sanctify them and offer up burnt offerings for the number of them all.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

So when Job and his sons and daughters or family gathered together to offer up offerings to the Lord, Satan would come in among them, (remember one of Satan's roles at the beginning was also a priestly role) anyway I can see I'm going to go off topic, so just to reiterate how I see this scenario is on earth, Satan had a role on earth and these sons of God were Job and his family on earth who walked by faith. etc etc

just to clarify my understanding of your view, at the cross; Satan was cast out of heaven which would also coincide with the war in heaven; so also with the one third angels that followed him are cast out at this time?

Would you mind giving me an example of what you see in the world as a fact maybe of Satan's corrupting influence that is seen and felt? Just so I understand what angle you approach this from!


Sorry I just read what I wrote and made a such a dogs breakfast even I don't understand what I wrote, What I mean is; if the bible at first appears to contradict itself with statements that with a quick glance seem to indicate that Satan is temporarily cast out and not on earth today, and verses that could indicate he is here on earth today, then we know that scriptures are in harmony and that one of the statements are not to be take at apparent face value. For example like in 2nd Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down into the abyss and delivered them into chains of darkness.

That to me could indicate that Satan who is an angel that sinned has indeed been cast out of the earth and is not here on earth today.

and then we have verses like, which also could indicate to me that Satan is here today walking around on the earth.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

That is the contradiction I'm meaning that needs to be sorted out in my head. A perusal or study of both verses to understand what each means, and then to realise their are other verses that have the same implications and process.

Of course I could be stubborn and say there is no way 1Pet 5:8 means it's iteral Satan so there is no contradiction, or there is no way Peter meant all the angels who sinned so there is no contradiction, but to me I would be being slightly dishonest with myself if I did that.

Yes 1Pet 5:8 is written after the cross and the timing applies today, Although I have a reason for why I think 1Pet 5:8 is not talking about Satan literally being here, and literally eating people but maybe you want to show me how he is here with this verse?

Same here bro, The more I read scripture the more I know how much I don't know,

Thanks

Clayman, I quoted verses from Job 1.6 followed by a few others, 1.6 says;
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
it means they, satan and the fallen angels went before to the throne of God that is in heaven! you missed the point!

What you describe in Isaiah is Satan trying to take the thrown of GOD. About the war in heaven I do not know when that was or will be the only verse I know about seem to be in the end days and it says;
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

but when? only God knows it will happen at his appointed time.

AS For evil on this earth, yes I have seen evil a few times. I was pushed in front of a school bus as a child but there was no one there, something else, I presume an angel, grabbed me and put me on top of the front of the bus, there were witnesses, I landed in the principals office, they thought I did this myself, it was winter I had a snow suit on with heavy boots, the front wheel of the bus was higher than me, there is no way I could have gotten on that bus by myself, the bus driver saw me pushed in front of the bus then fly to safety on top of the hood much higher than me. I was alone on that bus stop. I was a very happy child in a happy family. I was about 7 then. I have seen a possessed man several hundred feet away in a crowd pointing at me and welling all sorts of things no one understood, a few more events much more scarier than these happened also It is Why I keep an Open Bible in front of my room at night. Yes Evil is present I saw it up close. But I am no longer afraid, I know the lord watches over me.

May the Lord also watch over you, Peace.

Luke 10:18 might explain Revelation 12:8.

Thank you Cameron, I do not know if it explains revelations but we will know one day. one thing is certain Satan fell!
it is a complex topic and it is hard to know the time frame of this event, for me anyways. The bible does not give us complete details but we know a bit of what happened and will happen thanks to the book of revelations.

Peace

The verse in Luke comes shortly before Christ's death. Satan seemed to be able to frequent heaven until the cross. Afterwards, Jesus blood cleansed not only humanity, but also heaven upon His return. This would explain the timing of the statement in Luke and likely why Satan cannot return to heaven now.

yes it makes sense, thank you.

Don't take my word for it. Search the scriptures...Acts 17:10-11.