Works and Salvation

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,098
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#41
Whaaaaat? You mean I have to put it in gear myself? And then like, pay attention to the road? So much for "free gift". What a ripoff!!
The only thing the original post missed was that salvation is the vehicle. Doesn't matter if you know the rules of the highway or not, making vroom and errrrr sounds ain't driving. You actually need a car first.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,018
29,384
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#42
I wonder how many times this OP has told us we must keep the Sabbath and follow the 613 Mizvot...

Telling us they (the 613) are written on our hearts.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,414
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#43
That doesn’t follow again because there can be any number of reasons for keeping God’s law other than in order to earn our salvation. For example, the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will keep His commandments, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to love Him, but not in order to earn our salvation. Likewise, we can obey God’s commandments because we trust God to correctly divide between right and wrong, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to trust God, but not in order to earn our salvation.
You completely missed the point of the verse.

It doesn’t say, “If you love me, you should strive to keep My commandments,” but rather, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”

We keep His commandments not by human effort, but by the inner workings of the Holy Spirit. He changes us from the inside out.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,414
13,762
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#44
I wonder how many times this OP has told us we must keep the Sabbath and follow the 613 Mizvot...

Telling us they (the 613) are written on our hearts.
Probably something near 613 times? Or just seventy times seven?
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,777
624
113
#45
I wonder how many times this OP has told us we must keep the Sabbath and follow the 613 Mizvot...

Telling us they (the 613) are written on our hearts.
Man I never would have made it back then. "don't do what? HA watch me!"
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,777
624
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#46
There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.
I understand this is your view for me the moment He found me I didn't have to do anything to receive that free gift. When did it change? OT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved/delivered. My salvation is not based on any work I do. Before I knew Christ I always did works of the flesh. Since He found me as its written there should now be good works. I do not have to do good works what is within me wants to. There is still with in me the desire to sin aka bad works yet that is not me but sin that is in me. The law 613. When He set them free they complained moaned over and over yet God still met ever need they asked for. That is what HE wanted. He wanted to be their God their king. But something happened Israel said something and then 613 laws. Which helped them see what they really are. We love in a sinful fallen world. Theres a reason He said if you love me keep my words/commands. That does not mean your saved or not saved. He said this to them years later after they walked with Him been with Him day and night.

So any good work, deed I do is its with in me. So after this life I will lay down ever crown that He never asked for. I do it because ANY GOOD in me I can ever do ..it was HIM that did it. This will be good. Good works don't save me I have already been found that can not Change
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#47
I checked my heart earlier and only counted 612. Can anyone tell me which one I'm missing?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,153
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#50
Ok.

Deuteronomy 22:6 “If there happens to be a bird’s nest in front of you along the road, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the hen sitting on the young or on the eggs, you are not to take the hen with the young.

Though I have never claimed to be sinless. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned and still be saved demonstrates that we are not required to have sinless obedience to God’s law. The only reason why someone would need to have sinless obedience to God’s law would be if we are going to give ourselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can have our sins forgiven. Incidentally, you are not addressing the distinction that I made in my OP.
You ignored the nest in front of you along the road altogether and failed to repent of it. And since you're giving yourself to the law, then you have to pay according to the law. How many lives do you have?
You said, "The only reason why someone would need to have sinless obedience to God's law would be if we are going to give ourselves to pay for the sins of the world," so, you definitely can't pay for the sins of the world, and you continue, "the rest of us can have our sins forgiven," but only those that have repented and are baptized into Christ but, apparently, you've baptized into the law of Moses. Perhaps this is why God has judged to allow such as these to "live it up" in his longsuffering and desire that no one should perish.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
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#51
You conveniently avoided my question, as expected.
In my OP, I said "there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense", so I affirmed that it that we are required to be a doer of works. I did not avoid the question, but rather I understood you as saying that if that is required, then they are required to earn it, so I gave two examples to show how that does not logically follow.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
43
#52
The only thing the original post missed was that salvation is the vehicle. Doesn't matter if you know the rules of the highway or not, making vroom and errrrr sounds ain't driving. You actually need a car first.
Salvation is not the vehicle, but rather salvation is an experience and we are required to do works in order to have that experience. In other words, doing works is intrinsically part of what the gift of salvation is, not something that we need to do first I order to earn it as a wage.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,098
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#54
Salvation is not the vehicle, but rather salvation is an experience and we are required to do works in order to have that experience. In other words, doing works is intrinsically part of what the gift of salvation is, not something that we need to do first I order to earn it as a wage.
Nope. Salvation is an infusion of the life of God into an individual. It restores that which was lost spiritually in Adam. Once it is restored, the rest becomes possible. You have no car, but you pretend you do.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
43
#55
I wonder how many times this OP has told us we must keep the Sabbath and follow the 613 Mizvot...

Telling us they (the 613) are written on our hearts.
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. Do you agree or disagree with this verse?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#56
In my OP, I said "there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense", so I affirmed that it that we are required to be a doer of works. I did not avoid the question, but rather I understood you as saying that if that is required, then they are required to earn it, so I gave two examples to show how that does not logically follow.
If you begin to talk about certain parts of scripture here it will automatically draw some contention


Here’s a list to consider avoiding 😅

“repentance “ “ baptism “ “ doing good works “ “ rapture “ Israel “ “ Old Testament law “ the content of Paul’s epistles “ “ once saved always saved ?” Faith without works is dead “

You should be okay basically if you avoid what the Bible says 😆
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
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#57
You completely missed the point of the verse.

It doesn’t say, “If you love me, you should strive to keep My commandments,” but rather, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”

We keep His commandments not by human effort, but by the inner workings of the Holy Spirit. He changes us from the inside out.
I said:

"For example, the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will keep His commandments, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to love Him, but not in order to earn our salvation"

I notably did not say:

"If you love me, you should strive to keep My commandments."

It is contradictory to think that obediently relying on God instructions is relying on our own effort.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,098
6,579
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#58
I said:

"For example, the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will keep His commandments, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to love Him, but not in order to earn our salvation"

I notably did not say:

"If you love me, you should strive to keep My commandments."

It is contradictory to think that obediently relying on God instructions is relying on our own effort.
Relying on God's instructions without God's power is vanity.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
43
#59
Nope. Salvation is an infusion of the life of God into an individual. It restores that which was lost spiritually in Adam. Once it is restored, the rest becomes possible. You have no car, but you pretend you do.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what is ungodly. It notable does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result or that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.