Is this doctrine an apostasy?

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Philos

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#1
Mar 31, 2023
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#1
The situation is this: A young man just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior at a youth rally. At the end of the rally service, all of the new believers are encouraged to go across the street to the baptismal site and be baptized. Is the young man is crossing the street to be baptized He is hit by a car and killed.
The question is this: Is the young man going to heaven or to hell?

The ultimate question is, are those churches Whose doctrines state that all believers must be water baptized as well as accepting Christ as their Lord and savior, to accomplish and complete "the salvation process" and therefore spend eternity with Christ in heaven?
As an example would be most of the " Church of Christ" churches, those that have the name: "_______ Christian Church".
Is this doctrine of salvation which mandates water baptism an heretical teaching And those that teach And accept this doctrine are apostates? Please give supporting scripture(s) to support your answer.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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#2
Feb 22, 2021
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#2
Philos said:
A young man just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior at a youth rally. At the end of the rally service, all of the new believers are encouraged to go across the street to the baptismal site and be baptized. Is the young man is crossing the street to be baptized He is hit by a car and killed.
The question is this: Is the young man going to heaven or to hell?
Click to expand...
What Saith The Scripture?:

"For By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is​
The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)​
​
? Heaven or hell?

Confusion of water baptism is discussed here:

ONE Baptism!

Amen.
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#3
Aug 13, 2014
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#3
1. I sense great axes to be grinded.

2. This belongs in the bible discussion forum.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#6
Apr 21, 2021
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#6
Philos said:
The situation is this: A young man just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior at a youth rally. At the end of the rally service, all of the new believers are encouraged to go across the street to the baptismal site and be baptized. Is the young man is crossing the street to be baptized He is hit by a car and killed.
The question is this: Is the young man going to heaven or to hell?

The ultimate question is, are those churches Whose doctrines state that all believers must be water baptized as well as accepting Christ as their Lord and savior, to accomplish and complete "the salvation process" and therefore spend eternity with Christ in heaven?
As an example would be most of the " Church of Christ" churches, those that have the name: "_______ Christian Church".
Is this doctrine of salvation which mandates water baptism an heretical teaching And those that teach And accept this doctrine are apostates? Please give supporting scripture(s) to support your answer.
Click to expand...
I think it's great if, as in your scenario, people are taught to get baptized as soon as possible after believing and receiving Christ; that's just Gospel 101. However, in your example, the person would be saved and be with the Lord because the water doesn't save us, faith in the Lord does. Teaching that teaches otherwise is misguided and false doctrine in my opinion; but I don't think it rises to the level of apostasy. As far as scriptures go: scriptures can be produced on both sides of the argument that seem to support a particular view so I won't go there. My opinion is just based on my understanding of God's word.
 
TabinRivCA

TabinRivCA

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#7
Oct 23, 2018
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New Living Translation
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.” Jesus also saved the criminal on the Cross because God knows our hearts. Baptism should follow but is not the deciding factor of salvation. Receiving Jesus Christ is.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#8
Feb 17, 2023
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I agree with everyone. Also remember the thief on the cross who believed the Lord Jesus. The Lord said to him:

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

He wasn't baptized (no time or opportunity!)


🐰
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#9
Oct 11, 2023
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#9
Philos said:
The situation is this: A young man just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior at a youth rally. At the end of the rally service, all of the new believers are encouraged to go across the street to the baptismal site and be baptized. Is the young man is crossing the street to be baptized He is hit by a car and killed.
The question is this: Is the young man going to heaven or to hell?

The ultimate question is, are those churches Whose doctrines state that all believers must be water baptized as well as accepting Christ as their Lord and savior, to accomplish and complete "the salvation process" and therefore spend eternity with Christ in heaven?
As an example would be most of the " Church of Christ" churches, those that have the name: "_______ Christian Church".
Is this doctrine of salvation which mandates water baptism an heretical teaching And those that teach And accept this doctrine are apostates? Please give supporting scripture(s) to support your answer.
Click to expand...
Someone can still be an obeyer of God through faith even if they are prevented from doing that.
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

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#10
Sep 15, 2019
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#10
Lynx said:
1. I sense great axes to be grinded.

2. This belongs in the bible discussion forum.
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So you think it was "just a coincidence" that the young man happened to be hit and killed by a car the moment he crosses the street to be baptised? Do you realise how unlikely it is for someone to be struck and killed by a car, let alone moments before being baptised?

I postulate that it is more likely that the young man was murdered, and given the background, possibly by one of those cultists who believe that works such as baptism is necessary for salvation (I mean, why else choose the moment just before baptism to strike?), and therefore, cast my vote for transferring this thread to the Conspiracy and Corruption forum.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#11
Dec 15, 2018
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We dont know if the repented thief got baptized before he was sentenced though baptism is more to prepare you for a new life than just do it before you die.

It does sound like one of those tricky Bible exam questions Bible colleges pose for their students. I am sure many frustrated students post those exam questions on CC hoping to crib answers.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#12
Feb 17, 2023
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#12
Lanolin said:
We dont know if the repented thief got baptized before he was sentenced though baptism is more to prepare you for a new life than just do it before you die.

It does sound like one of those tricky Bible exam questions Bible colleges pose for their students. I am sure many frustrated students post those exam questions on CC hoping to crib answers.
Click to expand...

You can read this article for better clarity: Was the thief on the cross baptized in order to be saved?

Here's the pertinent segment of the article:

The gospel of Luke also says they were insulting Jesus! But Luke 23:39-43 calls these two men criminals, kakourgos. Yet, most Christians choose to describe these two men as thieves. Luke is unique since it tells us only one of the men defended Jesus. He is typically referred to as the thief on the cross. Here is Luke’s account.

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:39-43 (NASB)​
​
It may be that initially both of them were insulting Jesus and then later one of them changed his view of Jesus. The repentant thief’s faith in Jesus Christ was revealed when he acknowledged that Jesus was God (v. 40, 43), 2) confessed his own sin (v. 41), declared that Jesus was innocent (v. 41), believed Jesus had an invisible kingdom (v. 42), and that Jesus had the authority to grant him admission into Paradise or heaven (v. 43). When Jesus promised him that he would be in Paradise, Jesus revealed that he had the same faith as Old Testament believers.

So both thieves were insulting Jesus. But sometime later, one of the thieves repented. So that thief could not have been baptized as he didn't believe in Jesus before that.


🍣
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

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#13
Sep 15, 2019
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#13
2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
So both thieves were insulting Jesus. But sometime later, one of the thieves repented. So that thief could not have been baptized as he didn't believe in Jesus before that.🍣
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Exactly. It was not believer's baptism, as the thief had only just become a believer. And yet we see believer's baptism is important, as Paul re-baptises those who weren't believers who had only received John's baptism (Acts 19:3-6).
 
hornetguy

hornetguy

Senior Member
#14
Jan 18, 2016
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#14
Philos said:
The question is this: Is the young man going to heaven or to hell?
Click to expand...
You need to ask the only one qualified to answer that question.

All other speculation is simply that..... speculation.

Playing with hypotheticals, in my experience, is usually just someone trying to excuse not doing what God wants us to do.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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#15
Jan 16, 2021
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Magenta said:

Ephesians 4:5-6
:)
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When dyeing cloth, cords, thread, or yarn in the Ancient Near East there was no "computerized color matching" .

Each batch of dye was unique.

The word "baptism" is a root of the word for dyeing materials. That's what it means....to change the color.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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Magenta said:

Ephesians 4:5-6
:)
Click to expand...
As I was saying before I got rudely interrupted by a colonoscopy....

There has been ONE batch of dye used to color ALL of God's children...it doesn't matter if it's full emersion, tye dyed, stripes, polka dots, or fade to other colors....it is one batch of dye used to color all of us. That includes epaulets, cords, seams, buttons, and neckerchief collars. All different materials but the SAME batch of dye.

That's what ONE BAPTISM is all about.
 
Mem

Mem

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#17
Sep 23, 2014
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JohnDB said:
As I was saying before I got rudely interrupted by a colonoscopy....

There has been ONE batch of dye used to color ALL of God's children...it doesn't matter if it's full emersion, tye dyed, stripes, polka dots, or fade to other colors....it is one batch of dye used to color all of us. That includes epaulets, cords, seams, buttons, and neckerchief collars. All different materials but the SAME batch of dye.

That's what ONE BAPTISM is all about.
Click to expand...
Ahh so! this is how we get the white robes...:D
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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#18
Jan 16, 2021
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#18
Mem said:
Ahh so! this is how we get the white robes...:D
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Well it is your entrance requirement....the White robes are a metaphoric visual from a formal wedding celebration where the host would provide every attendee a white (or other color) robe that those invited to the party would wear. (To separate them from onlookers and servants)
The invited guests wore the robes and would be honored by all....
 
Eli1

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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#19
JohnDB said:
As I was saying before I got rudely interrupted by a colonoscopy....
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:ROFL: This made me laugh because i will be rudely interrupted too very soon. :LOL::LOL:
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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#20
Jan 16, 2021
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#20
Eli1 said:
:ROFL: This made me laugh because i will be rudely interrupted too very soon. :LOL::LOL:
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The one here in Georgia in this backwoods/Wild area....they really don't understand the concept of efficiency.

In Nashville I was in and out...no waiting hardly at all. All done by mid morning. They had us lined up like a production line too. Those operating rooms were kept full and moving. And I could at least have a cup of coffee with sugar instead of ½&½ as I got up.


Instead of at 6am arrival I wasn't to get there until quarter past 9....(I'm an early riser by nature) Then I waited in a room for another hour. Freezing without clothes. (I got blankets and some funky heater thing for my legs)
Then finally on the way to the OR they gave me the drugs. I don't even remember going through the OR doors.


I was starving the whole day of my prep....and this morning I was going crazy for water, coffee, and food....I wanted a bacon cheeseburger.

I got some fried chicken instead afterwards.
 
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