The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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ForestGreenCook

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Cameron143 said:
God speaks of us as being glorified as well. But we aren't yet. God can speak of the things He does as completed before they transpire in space and time because He exists outside of them and because all He purposes will come to pass. So yes, we are sanctified. But we are daily being conformed to the image of God. This is what I was referring to. If you believe there is a better scriptural term for what I described I'm all ears. Well, not literally. It's a metaphor. I'm open to a more exact phraseology concerning this as well.
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I was trying how to pitcher you being "all ears", which made me to think that who we are is sandwiched between our ears, ha.

Speaking of the seven churches in Asia, hath made us (past tense) kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev 1:6).
 
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PaulThomson

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reneweddaybyday said:
Jesus made clear that He had to go away in order for Him to send the Holy Spirit ... the Lord Jesus Christ had to come ... had to fulfill all the law and the prophets ... had to overcome the wicked one ... had to die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven before He could send that which was not available prior to His having ascended into heaven:
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Jesus ascended on Resurrection Sunday morning (John 20:17 "I am ascending to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God"), and received the Holy Spirit (Zec. 3) which He sent to the disciples on Resurection Sunday evening. John 20:22 ("Receive ye the Holy Spirit").
Jesus was speaking about His going away for a little while, namely the period of His death from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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PaulThomson said:
So, were these natural men able to receive spiritual gifts before being regenerated? Or must all that heard in their own language have been saved first?
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The answer to your first question is, No.

I do not understand the purpose of your second question.
 
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brightfame52

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PaulThomson said:
He most certainly is. Regeneration comes from confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in the heart that God raised Him from the dead. John 20 was where the ten disciples first did that and Jesus breathed on them and said "Begin to receive ( labete: 2 aorist active imperative) the Holy Spirit." That is clearly where and when they received the Holy Spirit.
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No He is not, thats your imposition.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
Did Christ die for all sin except for the sin of unbelief?

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). When the Bible says that Christ was the sacrifice for all sin, it does not mean that all sin was automatically forgiven. It simply means that the offering to secure forgiveness for the whole world has been made; whether that offering actually results in the forgiveness of any individual is another matter, because the offering must be accepted by faith. Our way back to God has been prepared by Christ; the question now is, we will avail ourselves of the opportunity?

Christ died for all sin; that is, His sacrifice was completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the entire world. But forgiveness only comes to an individual when he or she repents and believes (see Mark 1:15). Until we accept (by faith) the provision of God in Christ, then we are still in our sins. Those who die in unbelief die in all their sin—they are unforgiven liars, murderers, adulterers, etc. (Revelation 21:8). Those who trust in Christ for their salvation do not die in sin; they die in Christ, with all sins forgiven. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1); without faith, we are condemned (John 3:18). Forgiveness is received through faith in Christ and comes with the promise of an eternity in heaven; lack of faith keeps us unforgiven and consigned to an eternity in hell.

In the Bible, belief, or faith, is more than just thinking something is a fact. Faith has more to do with trust and personal acceptance, deliberate acts of one’s will. So, in Scripture, the sin of unbelief is not merely ignorance; rather, it is willfully refusing God’s free gift of forgiveness of sin—including the sin of unbelief.

When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.

The Bible says much about the necessity of choosing faith in Christ and the results of unbelief. Christ longed to gather the sinful inhabitants of Jerusalem to Himself, yet they remained in their sin; Jesus’ condemnation places the onus directly on them: “You were not willing” (Luke 13:34). Their unbelief kept them away from Christ, their only salvation.

On the logic of requiring belief: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6)

On unbelief as an act of will, a deliberate choice: “Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in Him.” (John 12:37)

On why there is no excuse for unbelief: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” (Romans 1:18-20)

On the spiritual damage of unbelief: “What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!” (Romans 6:21) “Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways;” [but] “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (2 Corinthians 4: 2, 4)

On the justice of punishment for unbelief: “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19)

Finally, to be sure you know what a true believer must believe in order to be a forgiven Christian, here is a summary.

The Bible is clear that the only way to get into God’s perfect heaven is to be as perfect (pure and sinless), as God Himself (Matthew 5:20, 48; Luke 18:18–22). Even if you sin only once in your whole life, you have broken all of God’s law, just as breaking one link in a chain breaks the whole chain (James 2:10). God’s perfect justice means that every sin must be punished. That penalty is death in the form of eternal separation from God in hell (Exodus 32:33).

No human can meet God’s perfect standard, so without a supernatural Savior to rescue us, we are all lost sinners (Acts 15:10; Romans 3:9–23). God loves you and wants to rescue you from hell (John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9). So He sent his own perfect Son to take your punishment on Himself—his life for yours— paying your debt to God in full by dying on the cross, and forever freeing you from God’s righteous condemnation. Every one of your sins—past, present, and future—is forgiven if you choose to accept that gift of forgiveness by faith (believing and trusting God to keep His promise), when you repent (turn away from) your sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 11:18; 2 Corinthians 7:10) and ask Him to save you (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21). The blood of Jesus covers your sins so that God sees you as perfect as his own Son (Isaiah 53:4–6; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

The instant you accept God’s free gift by faith, you are changed: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: The old has gone, the new is here!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). You become God’s own beloved child (1 John 3:1), an eternal relationship that can never be broken (Romans 8:38–39; Ephesians 1:13–14). God as Father, Son and Spirit indwell you and make their “home” with you (John 14:17, 23). You can see why the Gospel of Christ is called Good News (Luke 2:10; Acts 5:42, 14:15)! In accepting this gift, you agree that you belong to God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). You are not your own because He bought (redeemed) you with the precious blood of his Son (1 Peter 1:18–19).

This amazing free gift of eternal salvation cannot be earned by any good thing you do (John 3:16; Romans 3:21–25; Ephesians 2:8–9). In fact, trying to earn it by your own efforts, as though you could please God enough to earn his acceptance, is harshly condemned in the Bible (Galatians 1:6–9). That is the difference between Christianity and virtually all the other religions in the world, with their manmade rules about what people must or must not do in the hopeless attempt to win God’s favor and gain eternal life for their souls.

Your salvation is free, a priceless gift from God more valuable than the entire world (Matthew 13:44; 16:26). And so the author of Hebrews asks, “How shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3). “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts” (Hebrews 3:7–8). “I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).
https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-of-unbelief.html
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Again the world of Jn 1:29 the Lamb took its sin away, along with its deadly consequences, if you dont believe that you in unbelief, you dont believe Jn 1:29 at all
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?

The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30).

The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day committed the unpardonable sin by accusing Jesus Christ (in person, on earth) of being demon-possessed. They had no excuse for such an action. They were not speaking out of ignorance or misunderstanding. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God to save Israel. They knew the prophecies were being fulfilled. They saw Jesus’ wonderful works, and they heard His clear presentation of truth. Yet they deliberately chose to deny the truth and slander the Holy Spirit. Standing before the Light of the World, bathed in His glory, they defiantly closed their eyes and became willfully blind. Jesus pronounced that sin to be unforgivable.

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, specific as it was to the Pharisees’ situation, cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, and no one can personally see Jesus perform a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ. The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ.

God has provided for our salvation in His Son (John 3:16). Forgiveness is found exclusively in Jesus (John 14:6). To reject the only Savior is to be left with no means of salvation; to reject the only pardon is, obviously, unpardonable.

Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2).
https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html
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The world of Jn 1:29 their unbelief was taken away, that was part of their sin the Lamb took away.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
Faith as described in 1 Corinthians 12 is listed as a spiritual gift. And spiritual gifts are given by the Spirit severally as He wills.
What you have posted is accurate relative to the natural man, but does not apply to the spiritual man.
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I said -
PaulThomson said:
So, were these natural men able to receive spiritual gifts before being regenerated? Or must all that heard in their own language have been saved first?
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You said: "On the day of Pentecost the miracle was in the ears of those in the audience being able to hear

Peter speak in their own language as there were people from several different regions who spoke different languages. This was a one time miracle that was given to the ears of the audience at Pentecost. This ability was given to the apostles and ceased after their deaths.

You said Peter spoke in one language and each in the crowd heard their own language. So, the miracle was received by natural men. Is the interpretation of tongues not a spiritual gift? And did you not say the audience all received that gift? Did you not say that to the natural man cannot receive spiritual things? Is the gift of interpretation not among the things you would list as spiritual thing?
 
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PaulThomson

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ForestGreenCook said:
So, in what manner do you think the old testament saints were born again?
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Were they born again? Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
I said -


You said: "On the day of Pentecost the miracle was in the ears of those in the audience being able to hear

Peter speak in their own language as there were people from several different regions who spoke different languages. This was a one time miracle that was given to the ears of the audience at Pentecost. This ability was given to the apostles and ceased after their deaths.

You said Peter spoke in one language and each in the crowd heard their own language. So, the miracle was received by natural men. Is the interpretation of tongues not a spiritual gift? And did you not say the audience all received that gift? Did you not say that to the natural man cannot receive spiritual things? Is the gift of interpretation not among the things you would list as spiritual thing?
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I didn't say the last part. I believe @ForestGreenCook did.
I do stand by what I actually said.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Were they born again? Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John.
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Because John lived and died before the cross. He didn't mean greater in stature, but greater in what they received in salvation. This is much the same thought that Jesus was making when He told Thomas he was blessed because he had seen and believed compared to those who did not see yet believe.
 
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Kroogz

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PaulThomson said:
I said -


You said: "On the day of Pentecost the miracle was in the ears of those in the audience being able to hear

Peter speak in their own language as there were people from several different regions who spoke different languages. This was a one time miracle that was given to the ears of the audience at Pentecost. This ability was given to the apostles and ceased after their deaths.

You said Peter spoke in one language and each in the crowd heard their own language. So, the miracle was received by natural men. Is the interpretation of tongues not a spiritual gift? And did you not say the audience all received that gift? Did you not say that to the natural man cannot receive spiritual things? Is the gift of interpretation not among the things you would list as spiritual thing?
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John 5:25King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 
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Kroogz

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reneweddaybyday said:
nope ... not all believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit in OT times. what we have in our day and time is not the same as what Moses had in his day and time.

In our day and time do you believe God takes Holy Spirit from within a believer and distributes that to others ... that's what God did back in Moses' day:

Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

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24-25 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.





Jesus made clear that He had to go away in order for Him to send the Holy Spirit ... the Lord Jesus Christ had to come ... had to fulfill all the law and the prophets ... had to overcome the wicked one ... had to die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven before He could send that which was not available prior to His having ascended into heaven:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


And Hebrews makes clear that OT believers died without having received the promise and that what we have is "better":

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.





The Lord Jesus Christ received the promise of the Holy Spirit when He ascended up into Heaven:

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The Lord Jesus Christ shed shed forth this, which ye now see and hear ... after Pentecost something changed from before Pentecost.

I do not believe it's a different Holy Spirit than what was evident in OT ... but there is a difference in how we are indwelt. We do not have to pray to God to ask Him not to take away the Holy Spirit from us (as David died in Psalm 51:11) ... we receive Holy Spirit from the Lord Jesus Christ as an internal reality and presence and He abides, remains within us, forever (John 14:16) ... we do not have Holy Spirit distributed from another believer to us (Numbers 11). From and after Day of Pentecost, when a person is born again, it is a new creation which is birthed within the person the moment he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Agreed!
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
God speaks of us as being glorified as well. But we aren't yet. God can speak of the things He does as completed before they transpire in space and time because He exists outside of them and because all He purposes will come to pass. So yes, we are sanctified. But we are daily being conformed to the image of God. This is what I was referring to. If you believe there is a better scriptural term for what I described I'm all ears. Well, not literally. It's a metaphor. I'm open to a more exact phraseology concerning this as well.
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AS we behold the glory of God in the face of Jesus we are now being changed from glory to glory, i.e. being glorified by degrees.
 
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brightfame52

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Did Jesus Christ die for the sin of unbelief ? 3

Now to show even moreso that those Christ died for, which are by His death reconciled to God while they are being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10, to show that they are an entirely different group apart from those who while they are enemies and unbelievers, instead of being reconciled to God, they are

#1 Already condemned Jn 3:18 and #2 Under Gods wrath Jn 3:36,

Now to further illustrate the difference, the enemies that Christ died for which were reconciled to God while enemies, thus already reconciled, the promise to them is that they shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

To them its promised more future salvation ! However, to those enemies/unbelievers who are under Gods wrath Jn 3:36 the promise is they shall not see Life Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

See the difference now between the two different sets of enemies and unbelievers ? One set shall be saved by Christ's Life, the other set shall not see Life, but shall remain under the wrath of God ! Christ's Death makes the difference, not faith ! 45
 
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ForestGreenCook

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PaulThomson said:
Were they born again? Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John.
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The kingdom of heaven is the church of whom Christ is the corner stone of. John the baptist was born again, when still in his mother's womb (Luke 1:4). John did not have a knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus as did those that are his bride.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Cameron143 said:
Faith is also a gift. Fruit is what the Spirit produces in us. Gifts are bestowed upon us. Every believer will have faith produced in them, as with every fruit. Not every believer will have the gift of faith conferred upon them.
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Rom 12:1-3, God hath dealt to every Man (that Paul calls brethren, verse 1) "THE" measure of faith (denoting the same measure, and that being the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), which all those that are born again have.
 
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