Matt. 5: 21-48. What does Christ mean when He says “you have heard, but I tell you?

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Soyeong said:
Is it your position that Christ is of no value to someone who becomes circumcised for any reason? So you think that Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US?

There is a clear distinction between speaking against circumcision for the purpose of becoming justified (which Paul did) and speaking against becoming circumcised for any reason (which Paul did not do, such as with Timothy), so there is no need to accuse me of spin. In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so if Paul spoke against circumcision for any reason, then he was a false prophet according to God and we should still become circumcised for the purposes for which God commanded it, or if Paul only spoke against circumcision for incorrect purposes, then we should still become circumcised for the purposes for which God commanded it, but either way we should obey what God has commanded. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God, so he shouldn't be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ set us free from God's law, but that he gave himself to set us free from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), and the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.
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My position is that circumcision, like all old testament law, was a shadow of things to come. Physical circumcision was always an outward sign that pictured the circumcision of the heart...Ezekiel 36:26. This is what was always in view.
This is the point Paul is making. It isn't a Jew who is one outwardly, but one who is one inwardly. The nation or kingdom of Israel was a physical kingdom. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. Following the law puts one in the physical kingdom. Being in Christ places one in the kingdom of God. No amount of physical endeavor in any form can take someone out of a physical kingdom and put them into a spiritual kingdom. That can only be accomplished by an act of God.
 
M

montana123

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#22
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which He had to do everything a human had to do to be right with God becoming the mediator between God and people.

He is sinless, the perfect Saint, King, High Priest, Prophet, and the temple, and the sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of King on Earth, and it must be done on Earth, and that is the reason for the millennial reign of Christ.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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montana123 said:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which He had to do everything a human had to do to be right with God becoming the mediator between God and people.

He is sinless, the perfect Saint, King, High Priest, Prophet, and the temple, and the sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of King on Earth, and it must be done on Earth, and that is the reason for the millennial reign of Christ.
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Where does it say He must physically reign on earth? Is He not ruling and reigning in the hearts of His people on earth even now?
The law has been fulfilled. Otherwise, there is no kingdom of God. And the old heaven was cleansed with His blood and is made new. Satan was cast out of heaven shortly before Jesus' death on the cross in anticipation of this...Luke 10:18.
The earth also is being made new. First in the new creation as people are granted peace with God and empowered with gifts from on high. And the kingdom of Satan which once seemed impenetrable is being replaced by the church which the gates of hell cannot stand against. Jesus is reaching into the kingdom of darkness and shining a light. And every day, He adds to His church. And though we live in perilous times, God always delivers His people through the trials and not out of them. In this way we become more than conquerors. The very thing Satan would use to destroy us, God uses to bless and improve us.
We would all do well to be still and see the great work of God. Salvation through judgment is a theme throughout the Bible. Judgment for the wicked; salvation for His own. The outcome is never in doubt.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Cameron143 said:
Where does it say He must physically reign on earth?
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Christ will exercise his Kingly authority on Earth when the 7th trump sounds:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saint's reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

Second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb RULE here is in the future tense so it happens after the events of Armageddon are completed.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


All these prove a literal kingdom with Christ and his saints physically here on the Earth literally ruling over human beings of various nations.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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ewq1938 said:
Christ will exercise his Kingly authority on Earth when the 7th trump sounds:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saint's reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

Second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb RULE here is in the future tense so it happens after the events of Armageddon are completed.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


All these prove a literal kingdom with Christ and his saints physically here on the Earth literally ruling over human beings of various nations.
Click to expand...
They actually don't. None of those verses have Jesus on earth. And nothing states Jesus needs to be on earth to reign.
And the saints are ruling and reigning in the earth currently. It's far from complete, but from 120 believers cowering in an upper room to millions, possibly billions, of believers today, incredible progress has been made.
And the way we know He is ruling and reigning is all authority has been given to Him and the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church He is building. The great thing about spiritual kingdoms...they only require you to be there in Spirit.
 
J

Jepethiel

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Hi everyone, it Christmas day in Darwin NT.

I have had a look at the thread posts

Bilk, I agree that the subject of the distinction between the letter or the LAW, or TORAH, also called by those complicating perverters of simplicity, theologians, the Decalogue or the Ten Words, and the Spirit of the Law goes back to Ex. 19:8, where the Children of Israel boastingly, (implied from the original Hebrew), tell Moses that they could do everything that God tells them to do. (And there is prophetic foreshadowing in verses 10-11 of the Second Advent). This is a very important scripture passage with regard to the CAPSTONE, the story of the church AFTER the catching-away, which happens on the THIRD DAY (2,000 years after Jesus' RESURRECTION, 2 Pet 3:8 the Day for a Millennium prophetic principle).
So God gave a bunch of unbelieving Hebrews who had come out Egypt (for a Three Day journey) a set of 'RULES' for spiritual BABIES. And that is the basis of the Letter of the Law.
But neither does God waste anything He gives.
Thus the Spirit of the Law is the true intent of God that has MAN depending on Him for the power to fulfill the Law. In that we depend on the work of Jesus on the cross to REVERSE the CURSES that God placed on Adam, Eve, and the Ground (the creation).
Jesus is pointing out the contrast between a fleshly 'I can do' attitude often seen when 3yr Olds think they can dress themselves. And a spiritual in You 'I have done through Your death' attitude of FAITH.

Hope that helps guys,

Your servant in Christ,
Jepethiel.
 
J

Jepethiel

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#27
Actually Jesus will reign' on earth, see Rev. 19:14-20.

And that is guaranteed to be true.
I am the Lord's APPOINTED prophetic spokesman on the earth at this time.

The nub of my mention of waiting 48 years to begin ministry. We wait on God's timing!

Your servant in Christ Jesus,
Jepethiel.
 
J

Jepethiel

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montana123 said:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which He had to do everything a human had to do to be right with God becoming the mediator between God and people.

He is sinless, the perfect Saint, King, High Priest, Prophet, and the temple, and the sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of King on Earth, and it must be done on Earth, and that is the reason for the millennial reign of Christ.
Click to expand...
Yes you are spot-on correct
Jepethiel.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Cameron143 said:
They actually don't. None of those verses have Jesus on earth.
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Sure they do. Don't you know the first coming was to the Earth, and the second coming is coming to the Earth again? He will rule from here with his saints. He rules in a sense from heaven now but will return and literally rule here in person and he will neve4r leave as many scriptures place the eternal home of the Father and Son as upon the Earth.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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ewq1938 said:
Don't you know the first coming was to the Earth, and the second coming is coming to the Earth again?
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This is why Matthew 25:31-34 says "when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL THE NATIONS [both the Sheep and goats of the nations]"... "goats" / the "cursed" aren't "going up" at that time-slot;

rather, this is His "RETURN" [to the earth] time-slot as in Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN from the wedding" (as an "already-wed" Bridegroom, at that point); and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"
(neither of these have taken place yet, but fit into the Rev19 time-slot, and where v.15b states "and he SHALL [future tense to His return] rule/shepherd them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [/righteousness (Heb1:8) and strength]")
 
Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

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Thunderrr-mental said:
is that spiritually
or spit-ually it don't mean spit 😋
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Spiritually, of course. Circumcision was a shadow of what was to come. After calvary, no further shadow was needed in the presence of the reality.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

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Bob-Carabbio said:
Spiritually, of course. Circumcision was a shadow of what was to come. After calvary, no further shadow was needed in the presence of the reality.
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what about circumcision of the heart.

I've heard that one can be very painful 🤔

 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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TheDivineWatermark said:
This is why Matthew 25:31-34 says "when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL THE NATIONS [both the Sheep and goats of the nations]"... "goats" / the "cursed" aren't "going up" at that time-slot;

rather, this is His "RETURN" [to the earth] time-slot as in Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN from the wedding" (as an "already-wed" Bridegroom, at that point); and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"
(neither of these have taken place yet, but fit into the Rev19 time-slot, and where v.15b states "and he SHALL [future tense to His return] rule/shepherd them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [/righteousness (Heb1:8) and strength]")
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You believe the throne of His glory is earthly?
 
Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

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Thunderrr-mental said:
what about circumcision of the heart.

I've heard that one can be very painful 🤔

Probably the highest mountain I've had to climb -

But right afterwards I wondered why I stupidly hadn't done it YEARS before, the first time it was offered.
Click to expand...
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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ewq1938 said:
Sure they do. Don't you know the first coming was to the Earth, and the second coming is coming to the Earth again? He will rule from here with his saints. He rules in a sense from heaven now but will return and literally rule here in person and he will neve4r leave as many scriptures place the eternal home of the Father and Son as upon the Earth.
Click to expand...
The eternal home of God is not Jesus footstool. Space and time will never house God. He may give a place where He makes His presence to be known, and the Shekinah glory may be made manifest, but it is the knowledge of the glory of the Lord that will fill the earth. Eye has not seen, or ear heard, or the heart of man considered the things God has prepared for us. Eternity is immeasurably more grand than your wildest imagination.
 
selahsays

selahsays

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ewq1938 said:
Christ will exercise his Kingly authority on Earth when the 7th trump sounds:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saint's reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

Second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb RULE here is in the future tense so it happens after the events of Armageddon are completed.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


All these prove a literal kingdom with Christ and his saints physically here on the Earth literally ruling over human beings of various nations.
Click to expand...
Amen. And here too, Jesus is on the earth:
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

- Revelation 14:1
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

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Bob-Carabbio said:
Probably the highest mountain I've had to climb -

But right afterwards I wondered why I stupidly hadn't done it YEARS before, the first time it was offered.
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I can relate, hope you never found the camel offensive.

You reminded me of a funny vision I had when a camel got a bit excited shall we say.

I was thinking how painful it was to listen to lost.

I like your whit it's always nice to see in our senior citizens. But painful to see our senior citizens grow bitter. That one breaks my heart
 
Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

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Thunderrr-mental said:
I can relate, hope you never found the camel offensive.
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I felt a bit like the camel for the last few days. It's been warm, and the pollen count is up through the roof.

You reminded me of a funny vision I had when a camel got a bit excited shall we say.

I was thinking how painful it was to listen to lost.

I like your whit it's always nice to see in our senior citizens. But painful to see our senior citizens grow bitter. That one breaks my heart[/QUOTE]

Chuckle!!! Anybody that tells you Age is "just a number" will lie to you about other stuff too. About half my family is down with colds, and we normally host a Christmas Morning breakfast / Christmas story / gift exchange at our house. Gonna be interesting to so how many make it this year (Normally 19 of us).
 
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