He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

This is just willful ignorance.

The Arminian is biblical. Please consider the olive tree in Romans 11. Paul says a Gentile (wild branch) grafted into the tree will be cut off IF they do not continue in God's kindness. If they continue to do God's will, they are eternally secure. If not, they will be cut off. Also, a Jew (natural branch) that was broken off can be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

"so that your joy may be complete," this is how to tell whether one will fall away or remain. The one that remains is completely secured into the vine and will not be cut off. Those 'dangling' will eventually wither, unless propped up against the vine to completely be 'healed', that is made whole, unless they are so far gone that they are cut off.

While thinking it through, I realized it is assumed that 'wild' olives have nothing to do with the 'natural' olive but consider how do wild olives grow? They've grown from fruit that has fallen off of the natural tree, and are 'wild' offshoots, aren't they? rather and an entirely different plant?

Many were actually saved... and then lost their salvation so that part is actually biblical.

Reformed theology is a joke!

Especially the part early on where they had people murdered for not agreeing with them.



Exactly!

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

What's sad is people keep arguing in favor of being able to NOT abide in Christ... and still be saved.

This is so pathetic. It suggests a pitiful God who cannot keep His saved ones saved eternally. Actually you anti-eternal security posts are a joke. You are one of those who are "never able to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

Needless to say, I fundamentally disagree with just about all of your conclusions, so I will post alternatives to them for another perspective. However, in order to make this more manageable, and as time permits, I will divide your post and my replies into multiple smaller pieces and address them sequentially. Feel free to reply if you so choose to.
I just noticed that the replies I've already worked on so far (obviously besides this one) seem to somehow have been deleted (I've been having computer issues), so I will have to reconstruct them. It will take me a while before I can post another one.

Part I

Faith and righteousness are one in the same, not separate things - it is not that one can bring the other about, nor that one follows the other; that is; faith is not first produced by someone, and because they've produced that faith, by that, then righteousness is imputed to them. Instead, when someone receives true faith, as a part of that faith, there is righteousness too.
True belief is a byproduct from faith: Christ’s faith. That Abraham believed (and as with all who believe), it comes/came from the receiving of Christ’s faith freely imputed to them. So, any righteousness spoken of regarding Abraham, could not possibly have been of Abraham doing. Abraham's faith simply would not/could not have been a righteous faith, nor could it have brought righteousness: that which is unrighteous cannot acquire righteousness: man's faith, by his nature, is sinful. Therefore, it would not have been possible for Abraham to be justified in any sense by his own works, to also include by his faith/belief, because justification can only be given by Christ, as only Christ’s faith alone is righteous. We are unambiguously told this in Rom 4:2 (below) - that Abraham couldn't/didn’t justify himself. Do you see in it that Abraham could not justify himself to God by his works? Therefore, the works spoken of in the book of James were not referring to Abraham's (I will expound more about this in one of my subsequent replies).

Observe that Abraham's works provided him with no justification before God.

[Rom 4:2 KJV] 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Christ’s righteousness is manifested along with His faith - both being freely given to those whom He saves, as were given to Abraham: it is by Christ’s faith/righteousness, which is imputed to those He saves, as their faith/righteousness. Those made just (justified) by Christ, are/were given spiritual life by/through HIS faith, not through theirs.

Observe in Rom 1:17, the "from faith to faith". It means that true faith originated from Christ's faith and is given to those He saves, and by that, has God chosen to make known to us His righteousness. By which faith we receive eternal life.

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Observe that Christ's faith itself was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness in order that Abraham be made righteous - which was God's will. It is Christ's faith alone that is righteous.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Observe in Rom 3:22, 4:13, and Phl 3:9, that righteousness and faith are one in the same, or said another way, it is faith's righteousness. Righteousness is not separate from faith.

[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So, in your view... when Christians back slide and go back to living in sin as we are seeing so many do in these last days... it's God's fault?

You speak from a calvinist view point that God causes people to be saved and then He makes them walk with Him and man has zero responsibility in any of this.. which is not what God's Word teaches.

You should ask the Lord to open the eyes of your darkened understanding to help you discover the true Gospel and quit mocking God by claiming man does not reap what He sows (Gal 6:7,8)

The false calvinist view claims God does everything and man does nothing... which leads people to believe they are still saved even if they continue living in sin... which actually causes them to go to hell instead and it's their fault, not God's fault.

Romans 2:5-11
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

We are to turn from darkness unto the Lord thru the power of Jesus (Phil 4:13)... not in our own strength

The calvinists can't seem to find Phil 4:13 in their bible... or they don't believe it applies to them.

The joke is on the OSAS peoples who sadly refuse to accept all that the Lord says in His word and are cherry pickers instead... suffering from acute Cherry Pickers Syndrome
Creepy calvinist dude

Part II

The “a man” of the above represents Christ. Faith, righteousness, and works perfectly comprise His faith, with all of those being freely imputed to those whom He saves – but they the works of God and not being the works of man.

What James 2:20 is actually saying is that should someone claim their faith -a faith produced of themselves (rather than of being fully as a gift from God) - a faith of their own making - in order for that faith to be alive, it must also have works the equal of the works of Christ, which, of course, would be impossible for anyone to achieve. However, in essence, the verse is informing that it is impossible for man of himself to satisfy any of the requirements for salvation. To believe otherwise, is to diminish Christ as Saviour.
Those works are not the works that man must produce, but since your interpretation is that they are, then the verse on its face lacks explanation as to the exact nature of those works: not of what they are, nor of the required frequency, nor of how to achieve them - and as such, they would be just nebulous requirements imposed upon us yet without informing of the specifics of exactly how to achieve them, and therefore, tells the reader nothing. Should someone theoretically satisfy them (which of course no one can), they would then be the co-saviours with Christ, which doctrine is in direct violation to the true gospel. However, since all was actually achieved by Christ, we do know that His works and His faith as demonstrated in/by the Gospel achieved all and was therefore sufficient alone to bring forth salvation. We can thereby know that nothing further from those saved are required. So, faith being alone without righteousness and works, indeed, no one can become saved, but those requirements were not intended for man to satisfy, but only for Christ, who freely and perfectly did satisfy them on behalf of those He saves. And based upon that interpretation, no additional information in the verses is needed to complete it besides that which is already there- it is fully complete in itself, and by which, was everything explained.

Man’s dead works cannot give life to a dead faith no matter how hard one might try or desire it to be so: dead works being dead, cannot give life to a faith that isn't alive. But that is not what the verses is actually saying. Instead, it tells us that true faith, for it to be true faith, must already HAVE works within it from inception for it to be alive – not that works can be added to it afterwards - so it thereby can only be Christ’s works in view – which were always present from the beginning. It does not say that any works we may do following afterwards can make faith alive, which is the conclusion your interpretation leads to; instead, all must simultaneously exist within faith for it to be an alive faith. Notice the “hath” in the verse (present tense), it does not say “will have works” in order for faith to be alive, but that faith must already “HATH” works, but those being Christ's works not man's.

In James 2:15 - 16 he uses an allegory: he uses physical warmth and food as the symbols of spiritual food and warmth. We can know this because Jesus's mission was not to attend to the physical needs of people, which would then make the gospel into a humanistic/secular gospel, but which it isn't. Instead, His purpose was to attend to spiritual needs of His elect: He provides spiritual food and warmth to those to whom He gives true spiritually hunger. This is not to mean that those saved shouldn't help with the human needs of others because they most definitely should, but neither does that mean doing so will bring them salvation.

And we are called to follow Jesus doing what He does so... "a man" is applied to us as well.

So you don't believe if we abide in Him... and He in us.... then He is doing good works thru us???

We are supposed to be submitting our lives unto Him and be walking in agreement with Him... the result of this is doing good works which demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit in us showing the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ... is living in us and thru us.

So, faith without good works... is dead.

Faith alone... is not biblical.


The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Martin Luther was a known drunk so I can see how he would want to leave the part about works out so he could continue drinking his beloved booze which is living in sin! (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-13)

Quite the quandary here... who shall we say is in error the Lord or the reformers??? That tis the question!

Was Jesus a troll? Absolutely not. Stop it.

No, it is not. True faith is only given as a gift from God. Man cannot bequeath it to himself, nor can he produce it. So, as I said in my post, if someone were to believe that faith came of their own doing, then they'd better produce the same works as Christ did to go along with their faith, or their faith is dead - which they can never do. However, when Christ's faith is freely imputed as God's gift, then both His faith AND His works are imputed, therefore, nothing remains to do but to be a recipient. Christ is Saviour in all ways and man is not saviour in any way.

There is no remaining question. The faith/works/righteousness that saves are of Christ, not man - that is why He has the title of Saviour and man does not. That is what the Lord has said. All of the above verses were satisfied by Christ, not by man.

You should have read James 1:25 too. It explains what is meant that someone be a doer of the work: it is that they are under the
law of liberty and continue therein and not under the law of works. This is so, because Christ has performed all of the required works on behalf of those whom He had chosen to salvation, by which works, to those to whom they are imputed, they continue in the law of liberty. And as with all things that pertain to salvation, they are gifts freely given, in their fullness, to His chosen by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God.

[Jas 1:25 KJV] 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Yes. It can't get any clearer than that.
Belief + baptism = salvation

Not if you go by Ephesians 2:8,9 and many other passages.
Salvation (justification) is by grace through faith PLUS NOTHING.

I just noticed that you're banned, so I won't likely have another opportunity to share this with you. Perhaps you'll read this before moving on.
Consider the following short teachings or not. That's your call, as always.
He's not a Calvinist, but does believe that it's the grace of God apart from our works that saves us.

Have you repented of ALL your sins?

Since you teach others, you owe it to those people to take the effort to rightly define the term that you falsely add "of your SINS" to.
Repentance defined

#Times "Repent" is used in gospel of John

Repentance in Regards to Salvation

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Belief "apart from baptism" = salvation. (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

What I find extremely curious, is that most posts on this and other like threads choose not to undertake a focused discussion of
Jesus Christ as the Saviour, neither of desiring to find/plumb/establish the depths of exactly is meant that He is the Saviour -
but that the entire Bible was written about Jesus, of His salvation, and of eternal judgment, I would have expected that Jesus, and what He represents and brought forth, would be desired as primary focus of, and most the important of discussions undertaken - being far, far above all other topics. And yet, He is instead approached as afterthought or dragged along when convenient to support a particular point of view, instead of Him being the sole point of view, from which does all else emanate - with discussions instead focusing on the creating and achieving of man's requirements for salvation, even placing those requirements above Christ Himself.

[Psa 40:7-8 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

[Jhn 5:39-40 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

[1Jo 4:14 KJV]
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

You do understand everyone here does the same thing. I have seen some full of pride in what they personally believe and then talk down make fun of those that simply disagree. Again you make a statement yet do not back it up. "reformed theology still claims". Post it.

I will say it does seem like some are trying to audition for salvation hoping, praying maybe they get in by what they personally do. See allot of Christians I have personally come across in many (I can say many) Churches know and are secure in their faith. They have been saved and are not hoping to be but are a citizen of heaven and ambassador here for Christ. Christ died did we? Christ rose did we? What sin can touch Him? What sin can touch us? Are you this flesh or new man(spirit)? Does that new spirit sin or does this flesh sin? It seems you don't know who you are and what He truly did. As long as you know your right not even GOD will say anything. Me? I always at some point say "Father change me first". He's real He lives in us we can talk to Him and He talks back ALLOT!

Sorry but there are some here far wiser and stronger in the faith and they do not ever share that. Be wise to listen...

interesting, I'll have to read that.