Israel Declares War

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

cv5 said:

I have no disagreement with any of this except for the portion in red.

From my studies, He's coming back once to gather all that are His (everyone, not just descendant believers and not just non-descendant believers. Everyone who believes). He's not coming twice (i.e., one secretly coming to gather christians, and then another publically for the descendants).

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Correct me if I misunderstand you; Your argument is that those currently in the land are those very descendants but they havent accepted Messiah yet. And you believe they must first gain possession of the land so that they can go through their punishment because you dont believe Matthew 24 (AOD) has happened yet, right?

And your support of them currently is to that end: so that they gain possession of the land - by any means necessary - so that the rest of scripture can be fulfilled, right?

If i understand you correctly, my question is, why are we skipping over what history testifies happened in 70AD?

Cameron143 · Nov 24, 2023

Yahshua said:

We are one body. I recognize we are not unified as yet and that's why we don't function well together yet, but there is only the new creation in Christ. And despite our frail and ignoble appearance, we are one.

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Aren't the two highlighted phrases contradictory based on the definition of "unified"?

I have no issue with statements of faith. They are true. But they are not *realized* yet. For example, a stock investment of yours increases in value; you have "made a profit" but it is "unrealized" until it's cashed out and you experience it. Likewise with statements of faith. We ARE one and we ARE new creations by faith, but they are not *realized* yet...until the transfiguration. Until realized, we have our sanctification to work through.

Tying this back to the topic; do you support the state of Israel who aren't believers in Christ?

cv5 · Nov 24, 2023

Yahshua said:

If "70 A.D. preterism" was biblically correct I would be a preterist. And I am not a preterist.

As for the rapture the only reason the Revelation 12 war heaven takes place is because we are already there being falsely accused by Satan. I'm sure you don't understand what I'm talking about and that's tragic.

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

PennEd said:

After two days = the following day.

Hosea prophesied the same two events in two different ways using poetic language, like a song with the refrains being "us" and "us up":

1) For He has torn, but He will heal us;
2) He has stricken, but He will bind us up

3) After two days, He will revive us;
4) On the third day, He will raise us up

5) That we may live in His sight

torn = stricken
heal = bind up (wounds)
after two days = on third day
revive = raise up

After. It's the same mathematical language construct that is used in Daniel 9:26

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:..."

After 62 weeks = the very next week (i.e. in the 70th week, in context) the Messiah was to be cut off.

So, after two days = the very next day = on the third day, Israel is "revived" when they are "raised up" from the dead. Ezekiel 37 (valley of dry bones; resurrection of the whole house of Israel).

And if we're defining 70AD as the "day" Israel was torn/stricken, then "two days" after that - "the third day" - logically must be 2070 when Israel is revived. It can't be 1948 because that's within the 2nd "day".

1st day = 1 - 1000AD
2nd day = 1001 - 2000AD
3rd day = 2001 - 3000AD

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

cv5 said:

So then you believe satan still has a place in heaven right now? Even though The Messiah said in Luke 10:17-19

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

^ You don't believe this was the moment satan fell from heaven? Recall that not all of the book of Revelation is about the future:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

- Hast seen = John's past (our past too)

- Which are = John's present (our past)

- Shall be = John's future (which may be in our past, our present, or our future depending on the event)

cv5 · Nov 24, 2023

Yahshua said:

So then you believe satan still has a place in heaven right now? Even though The Messiah said in Luke 10:17-19

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

^ You don't believe this was the moment satan fell from heaven? Recall that not all of the book of Revelation is about the future:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

- Hast seen = John's past (our past too)

- Which are = John's present (our past)

- Shall be = John's future (which may be in our past, our present, or our future depending on the event)

You've got a Bible I assume? Revelation 12:9-12.

Don't bother pushing your preterism around me. You're wasting my time.

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

cv5 said:

I think I do.

cv5 said:

I'm a historicist.

Do you believe all of Chapter 12 is in the future?

cv5 · Nov 24, 2023

Yahshua said:

There's your problem.

As for me, I am simply someone who believes and understands prophecy, and comprehends what has been fulfilled in what remains to be fulfilled.

Simplistic categories and labels (like futurist) don't apply to me.

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

cv5 said:

Do you believe all of Chapter 12 is in the future?

Yahshua · Nov 24, 2023

I think it will help if we share a historical summary of the events surrounding the land and the people:

66 Jews revolt against Rome

70 Destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple
- Remaining Jews congregated in other outskirts of the land, like Galilee

132-135 Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome
- It was at this time that Rome changed the name of the land from Judaea to Syria Palaestina (Palestine)
- This means *ALL* the inhabitants of the land were no longer known as Judeans but as Palestinians
- This includes ethnic Jews still living there
- Jews are banned from Jerusalem

312-636 Constantine converts to Christianity. Byzantine ruled.
- Christianity became the primary religion of the empire
- Palestine was also part of the empire.
- Palestinians were some of the first converts to Christianity and are the initial reason for a Christian population in the Holy Land
- Palestinian Christians outnumbered Palestinian Jews
- Palestinian Jewish Jews were allowed to practice their faith but couldn't build new synagogues

614 Persians (i.e. Arabs) invaded Roman-ruled Palestine
- Islam was brought into the land
- Many Palestinians convert to Islam
- Converts to Islam included some Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Christians
- Those who did not convert were required to pay tribute but were otherwise left alone.
- The land is now inhabited by Palestinian Jews (some practicing Torah, some practicing Islam, some practicing Christianity), and Palestinian Arabs (practicing Islam)

636-1099 Arabs rule
- The Arab population grows, outnumbering the native Palestinian population of Jews & Christians
- The Dome of the Rock is built on Temple Mount
- Palestinian Jews were still not allowed to build new places of worship but were left alone

1099–1291 The Crusades: Christian Crusader Rule
- Palestinian Jews were "mercilessly persecuted" by Christian crusaders
- As a result, Jews fought alongside Arabs against the Christian Crusaders

1211–1517 Ayyubid Sultanate (Saladin) Rule
- Saladin defeated the Christian Crusaders
- Saladin (an Arab Muslim) issued a proclamation inviting all Jews to return and settle in Jerusalem
- Immigration of "Jewish" people (converts) into Palestine increased under Saladin
- Jews were eventually caught in the middle of battles between future sultanates and future crusaders

1517–1917 Ottoman Rule
- The land is now inhabited by Palestinian Jews (some practicing Torah, Islam, and Christianity), Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Arabs (practicing Islam and Christianity), and "Jewish" people (European converts to Judaism).

NOTES:

1) Early during the rule of the Ottomans everyone in the land of Palestine was living together within their own communities. There was no real conflict between Arabs and Jews.

2) The descendants who never left the land even while ownership changed hands were known as "Palestinians" (which were a mix of ethnic Arabs and ethnic Jews who practiced either of the three faiths). Meanwhile, those who were immigrating from other European countries were known more and more as "Jewish" or "Jew" even though they were European descendants of converts to the religion of Judaism.

3) In 1897 First Zionist Organization was founded; convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, Switzerland. "European Jews" identified the land of Palestine as Israel and as "theirs".

Sources:
- Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

- https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/AboutIsrael/history/Pages/History-Israel-Timeline.aspx

- Excerpt from a 12-year-old documentary created by Jewish Israeli & Jewish American historians, and Jewish & American Peace groups, showing the history of the start of the conflict.

cv5 · Nov 25, 2023

Yahshua said:

The historicists, preterists and amillennialists? Because they need the help.

As for me, don't really need much anymore. As far as eschatology is concerned.

ZNP · Nov 25, 2023

A Historical perspective concerning who gets to decide who gets the Holy Land

I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you

Some of the most catastrophic natural disasters to hit the US have exactly paralleled the US intervention into Israel.

1. October 30 1991 — George Bush opened the Madrid conference. 1st time there was a proposal to trade land for peace. On that same day a very rare storm formed off the coast of Nova Scotia called “The Perfect Storm” with 100 foot waves. Came down the coast of Maine and wiped out the first floor of the Kennebunkport home of George Bush sr.

2. August 23, 1992 — Madrid conference moves to Washington DC, attempt to crank up the peace talks (trade land for peace) on this same day Largest, worst and most expensive disaster to hit America up to that point, Hurricane Andrew hit Florida and left 180,000 people homeless. The hurricane lasted the same 4 days as the conference in Washington DC.

3. January 16, 1994 — President Clinton initiates a meeting with Syria in Geneva to talk about Israel giving up the Golan Heights. The meeting ended by 7:30pm in Geneva, that is 4:30AM on West Coast of US — powerful 6.9 Earthquake shook Northridge, the second most destructive disaster ever to hit the US, right after Hurricane Andrew.

4. March 1, 1997 — The US invited the most infamous terrorist alive at that time, Yasser Arafat, killed more children, hijacked more airplanes, by Madeleine Albright. One night during this visit there were 12 monster tornadoes on the ground at the same time sweeping through Tenn. During the same six weeks we had some of the worst tornadoes and floods. Greatest flooding of the Mississippi, when Arafat leaves the first week of April the rains stop, the flooding subsides and tornadoes stop.

5. January 21, 1998 — Prime Minister of Israel, Netanyahu meets with Clinton. He gives Netanyahu the cold shoulder, no state dinner, no public meetings, rebuffs him, etc. Same day the News media carries the Monica Lewinsky scandal for the first time.

6. September 27, 1998 — Madeleine Albright worked out the details where Israel would give up 13% of their land, one seventh of the country. On the same day Hurricane George slams into the Gulf coast. It hits the coast and just stalls and stays there flooding the coast. The next day they finalize the deal, Arafat addresses the UN, and Hurricane George revs up and causes a billion dollars worth of damage. The day Arafat leaves the US by airplane the hurricane dissipates.

7. October 15, 1998 — Clinton, Arafat and Netanyahu do a five day marathon to try and iron out the details to giving up one seventh of Israel for peace. On October 17 there is a huge storm that cuts across Texas, floods continue until October 22, one fourth of Texas is flooded.

8. May 3, 1999 — The day that Yasser Arafat says he will declare a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, on the same day as that declaration was said to take place we had the most powerful tornado storm system ever to be recorded swept across Oklahoma and Texas devastating Oklahoma City.

iamsoandso · Nov 25, 2023

Yahshua said:

I think it will help if we share a historical summary of the events surrounding the land and the people:

66 Jews revolt against Rome

70 Destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple
- Remaining Jews congregated in other outskirts of the land, like Galilee

132-135 Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome
- It was at this time that Rome changed the name of the land from Judaea to Syria Palaestina (Palestine)
- This means *ALL* the inhabitants of the land were no longer known as Judeans but as Palestinians
- This includes ethnic Jews still living there
- Jews are banned from Jerusalem

312-636 Constantine converts to Christianity. Byzantine ruled.
- Christianity became the primary religion of the empire
- Palestine was also part of the empire.
- Palestinians were some of the first converts to Christianity and are the initial reason for a Christian population in the Holy Land
- Palestinian Christians outnumbered Palestinian Jews
- Palestinian Jewish Jews were allowed to practice their faith but couldn't build new synagogues

614 Persians (i.e. Arabs) invaded Roman-ruled Palestine
- Islam was brought into the land
- Many Palestinians convert to Islam
- Converts to Islam included some Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Christians
- Those who did not convert were required to pay tribute but were otherwise left alone.
- The land is now inhabited by Palestinian Jews (some practicing Torah, some practicing Islam, some practicing Christianity), and Palestinian Arabs (practicing Islam)

636-1099 Arabs rule
- The Arab population grows, outnumbering the native Palestinian population of Jews & Christians
- The Dome of the Rock is built on Temple Mount
- Palestinian Jews were still not allowed to build new places of worship but were left alone

1099–1291 The Crusades: Christian Crusader Rule
- Palestinian Jews were "mercilessly persecuted" by Christian crusaders
- As a result, Jews fought alongside Arabs against the Christian Crusaders

1211–1517 Ayyubid Sultanate (Saladin) Rule
- Saladin defeated the Christian Crusaders
- Saladin (an Arab Muslim) issued a proclamation inviting all Jews to return and settle in Jerusalem
- Immigration of "Jewish" people (converts) into Palestine increased under Saladin
- Jews were eventually caught in the middle of battles between future sultanates and future crusaders

1517–1917 Ottoman Rule
- The land is now inhabited by Palestinian Jews (some practicing Torah, Islam, and Christianity), Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Arabs (practicing Islam and Christianity), and "Jewish" people (European converts to Judaism).

NOTES:

1) Early during the rule of the Ottomans everyone in the land of Palestine was living together within their own communities. There was no real conflict between Arabs and Jews.

2) The descendants who never left the land even while ownership changed hands were known as "Palestinians" (which were a mix of ethnic Arabs and ethnic Jews who practiced either of the three faiths). Meanwhile, those who were immigrating from other European countries were known more and more as "Jewish" or "Jew" even though they were European descendants of converts to the religion of Judaism.

3) In 1897 First Zionist Organization was founded; convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, Switzerland. "European Jews" identified the land of Palestine as Israel and as "theirs".

Sources:
- Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

- https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/AboutIsrael/history/Pages/History-Israel-Timeline.aspx

- Excerpt from a 12-year-old documentary created by Jewish Israeli & Jewish American historians, and Jewish & American Peace groups, showing the history of the start of the conflict.

At about the #3 portion of your notes it might be good to include the Haredim and Zionism aspect because the definition of Zionism the
Americans hold and those of Judaism are not quite the same. Different enough to make one think to themselves "Jews against Zionism why were/are there so many Jews who were against the creation of Israel?"... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism#Involvement_with_the_State_of_Israel

Yahshua · Nov 25, 2023

cv5 said:

I know, CV5.

HeIsHere · Nov 25, 2023

PennEd said:

I have already posted my view on this here on CC.
I wonder if you agree that the Palestinians have a right to statehood?

Magenta · Nov 25, 2023

Needevidence said:

Pat Condell - Islamophobia

HeIsHere · Nov 25, 2023

Yes let's point out the sins of one group so our conscience is eased as we watch them being bomb to death.

cv5 · Nov 25, 2023

HeIsHere said:

The entire world will (eventually and soon) be a theocracy under Christ Jesus with Jerusalem as its capitol. And the land and people of Israel will be an eternal Kingdom, with Israelites being eternal priests. All gentile nations will flow into it and be subordinate to Christ AND the nation Israel and serve the Lord Jesus and His chosen people the Sons of Jacob.

Isaiah 45:14, 17
Zechariah 14:16-17
Micah 4:1
Joel 3......see verse 20
Isaiah 66
Isaiah 2
Jeremiah 31:12-17

And of course hundreds of other passages......

Having said that (and you, now being provided with the correct perspective), exactly what rights to land and nationhood does so called Palestine actually have, bearing in mind the eternal unilateral covenant to the land of Israel so provided to Abraham?

cv5 · Nov 25, 2023

iamsoandso said:

Israel is never going to really "get it right"......until they are thrust into the thick of the tribulation whereby and wherewith they recognize their Messiah.

Israel Declares War

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