The right why to learn

In almost ever thread I have opened, many things have became clear to me. However the most common is how badly some misunderstand the Torah. So with this threat, we will look at them, and try to give the truth of what thous laws are, how they work, and why. Now please don't come in and try to say I am trying to say, FOLLOW THE LAW. In all truth, everyone of us has the responsibility to seek the truth, and work out our own salvation. Phl. 2:12-13.
So when we see a teaching that isn't in line with our own understanding it would do us good to hear it out. Why, well if we do as has been done in every thread I have ever opened, and try to beat someone into following our understanding, we push them further away. Why is do you think that the Jewish people will not speak with most people that say they are Christian? I can tell you from first hand experience. It took me a long time find a Rabbi willing to discuss their understanding. I found it odd that I was told to check my doctrine at the door. You see at first I didn't understand. I only said I would do my best. Don't get me wrong, I know my place, and understood that by entering into someones space, you must do so with respect of their understanding, and place in life. Bulling them, telling them how wrong they are, and never slowing down to get the full story of their walk, is doing Satan's work for him.
This has been, is still done, and from the looks of things will keep going on. The Jewish people in no way wish to push on you their understanding, just as they don't want you to do that to them. just I am not seeking your understanding, nor wish to force you to follow mine. We must learn to talk, and speak clearly of our intent, and understanding. Never say anything that can be seen as working both sides of the fence, or be so indoctrinated that we blind our selves. If we can do that, we can learn.
I find it sad that on a site full of so called believers, this the kind of retrospection one will get. That is if you don't buckle to the ideas of others. Then when you get enough of that, and stand up for your self, your the one they say is wrong. Yet in all truth, if they are truly believers, and honest, they would see how wrong their own action was.
Don't get me wrong, I am almost 100% sure the same thing will be tried on this thread as well. So if you are one of them that do this, you will not be getting any reply from me at all.
So did I learn? By being polite, and asking relevant questions. That is questions that relate to the TOPIC at hand. I learned more in a week than I ever did in any church. And trust me I attended many different denominations in my quest for truth. I was once a follower of the doctrine of law bad. I understood it was nailed to the cross, and held no relevance for the christian. Yet I learned I was wrong.

...And this is done by simply looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. One need not pour over commentaries, obituaries, fables, stories, or any other extrabiblical sources.

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

One topic that came up in my last thread was Circumcision. Oddly it was said that law has been removed. However they were looking not at that commandment, rather at Paul.
We must always keep in mind there are 2 sides of Torah. First we have the physical action, that shows ones willingness to walk in all that HaShem has said. Then we have the spiritual side. This is not seen, and seldom heard. Yet most that are believers see it at work in the lives of almost everyone they encounter.
So what is circumcision, and what good is it?
The physical act is intended to show the person is by blood a member of the family of Abraham. Oddly the part most never think about is that it also is a reminder to them. Not to remind them who they are, rather to remind of the covenant they are a part of. Any that wish to say this has been removed does so out of a lack of understanding. You see, HaShem didn't just say, cut that off and life will be good. He said,
Gen 17:7"I will confirm my covenant with you and your descendants after you, from generation to generation. This is the everlasting covenant: I will always be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Now as we know if a thing is everlasting, it means it last for ever, not coming to an end, or being changed.
Gen 17:9Then God said to Abraham, "Your responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant. You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility.
Gen 17:11You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you.
That is the physical act they undertake. The spiritual part of this is that they are reminded daily of this covenant. In those that understand it, they are reminded not just of the land they now call home. You see, the covenant is also made of the ways HaShem has given us all as a guide to walk closer to Him. Every promise He given, and every word He has spoken.
Now as to what Paul speaks of, when he talks of circumstance. We must understand that he speaks of both.
Rom 2:27In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
Here Paul is talking of the physical act. It is also here that one finds the act is to be a reminder of the laws Abraham followed. (More on that when we get there.)
Rom 2:29No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
This is a clear description of spiritual circumcision. As most will agree it is the change of heart that leads one to follow the in the ways of Yeshua. Yet how many truly understand the example Yeshua left for us? Not many that I have seen on here for sure. In fact not many look to Yeshua as the way we must walk in our faith. They would rather turn to Paul, and seek out the things they like, and remove anything they don't. Don't get me wrong, I do know full well when a person is walking after the way Yeshua showed us. It is clear in how they see the jewish people, Israel as a state, and how they treat HaShem's laws. Oddly in most churches the law is as a bad thing. To them all I say is, Live in what seems right to you. Keep studying, and learning. Never be scared of a teaching that is different than than your own. You may end up seeing something a bit more clearer than what you now see.

We will get to this in time. Although once I am sure their are no replies to what I just posted, I may turn to this. So please stay on the topic at hand if you will. Not that I have seen you any different, it is just that we wish to keep this orderly. Jumping around as so many wish to do, makes it hard for others that would like to follow the teachings harder.

Please keep in mind the topic is CIRCUMCISION not law.

Praise God for His word that bible or His book. For me the Bible or just Torah says oh far more then the law which was not for the righteous. I think if anyone (believer) wants to know more understand then read what He said in Acts, Romans, Hebrews so forth. He by His sweet sweet Holy Spirit will tell you what He was saying the more you study and just ask.

Hmm "The Jewish people in no way wish to push on you their understanding, " Lets give you a tiny one and just one that happen to me by Jewish people that I worked for when they saw me with a bible looked at me and said "just remember who wrote that!" Not GOD no Jewish people. Thousands of years later they are still a very stiff neck people that many will not read Isa 53 they will not talk about it and they not because of "Christians" have very colorful names for Yeshua. So if we back up to the time of Christ GOD face to face with His own said He is the way the truth and the life and no one will come to the Father but by Him. He said to some you are of your father the devil. If we don't like or maybe understand how some talk to Jewish people or others.. we can say "personally" I would not do that. But lets not call it "Satans work".

See in the western world if Christ finds you not much really changes when it comes to family and friends. Not for all but most where as if your Jewish living in 2023 and Christ finds you? You lose family friends they disown you they pay a much higher price just talk to Jewish believers in Israel about how they get treated. Luke 11 13.. have we received the holy Spirit since we believed? We let Him lead and guide us into what to say. I like how Dr Brown in this one area said the Rabbis would not talk to him because he didn't know Hebrew or Greek so he learned it. This I truly understand and respect. We do need to reach out to them well I've shared this before the year was 2000 and the city was NewYork USA which they say judaism is the second-largest religion practiced in NY. This man was elderly and the year 2000 he had never in NY heard about Yeshua/Jesus. Now what was said or not said in some past thread.. I don't care

Lets give you one more since your the one that said it. How are you different? "I find it sad that on a site full of so called believers, " So called believers? If it bothered you go back there and tell them.. lets not blanket most some few or all based on some posts that are nothing more the text. Odd I don't see it like this hmm.. but I like what you posted.. I don't share much with the Jewish people since I almost never see them. If I offended in any way forgive me.. I at 62 still am not good with words

It is important to be able to try to look at things from different perspectives. I tried interpreting the NT as though the NT authors were in complete agreement with the view of Gods law expressed in the Psalms (which they were) and found that the Bible made much more sense and had much more continuity than I had given it credit for.

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭

True, after all the writers of the N.T. only had the the O.T. If we were to have a teacher today, that thought from a book that wasn't even writen, we would most likely not listen to them. The people of the first century wouldn't have been any different. Also when we look at the number of times the O.T. is quoted, or refereed to, and remove them, we wouldn't have much left. One person said there would only be one pasage left, that being John 11:35. I do hope you will stay around, and give your in sight on some of this. I know that we would find we both learn something.

What you say is from the heart. That anyone should respect. As to my saying that some are doing Satans work, if I didn't believe it, I wouldn't say it. After all if a person makes a stand, then changes what side of the fence they want to be on, then goes back and forth, is that what a believer would do? My wording may have been a bit off, or left the idea that I think everyone one here is like that, if so it was not my intent.
As to doing Satan's woork for him, when a person does everything they can to push any one away from learning, is that not what satan would love? I know that his goal is to remove any trace of HaShem from the minds of man. If that was to fail, then at lest blind them from the truth of the Word.
So why would I say that Jewish people don't wish to push their understanding on us? In the past 20 or so years, not once has any of the Jewish people I have studied with ever tried to tell me how wrong I was by following in the steps of Yeshua. In fact they were more curious as to why I would want to study with them. You see they thought that we followed only the N.T. When they learned that I had been reading the Chumash, and studying the commentary of the Sages it blew their mind.
However not once did they ever shy away from any part of the Word. Even Is 53 was debated.
The one question that came up, asked by Rabbi Yochonah, an ultra orthodox, that the answer was not well received. "Why do you wast time in study of something that your people simply don't follow?" It was my answer that through him. It was, "I wish to understand every word that my salvation is based on."
As you can see I didn't say anything about the N.T. Yeshua, or anything that may offend my friend. So why was it not well received? Because he really thought I was trying to decisive him. In all that time not once did any one ever try to force me to see things their way. They simply answered my questions, and I listened as though it was the last thing on this earth I would ever get to do.
Oddly from my actions, and willingness to learn, there were some that HaShem moved in, and changed their hearts. So I stand by my meaning, even if the wording was not up to the standers of some.

True Christians have a great love in their heart for the Jewish people. Much more so than the love of the Jewish people for Christians.

Rom_11:28 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

True Christians respect that God has chosen Israel as His beloved people and in the days of refreshing, will turn them to the Messiah. For now, they are still blinded by the veil of Moses before their eyes.

In my experience, most Jews do not want to hear about Jesus. So it is refreshing to see an ethnic Jew ask questions.

As to your question on circumcision... there is no point in this procedure for religious purposes. Health... maybe. Circumcision was the outward expression of the Abrahamic Covenant. However, in Jesus Christ, there is a better Covenant and it was determined in Jerusalem that circumcision of the Gentiles was not needed. For the outward expression can not replace the inward work of Grace.

Sacrifice
This is a thing that oddly has been twisted into something it was never meant to be. Some seem to think that at one time it was the way to salvation, and forgiveness. Yet it never was. salvation was, is and will remain, by faith. A gift that men doesn't earn on their own merit. As anyone with the ability to read can see, Paul even said that Abraham didn't gain it by his own hand. So what were the sacrifices for, and did HaShem even want them?
First we must make note that sacrifices were given long before Sinai. Though some will wish to say I am wrong, the Word is clear. The first sacrifice came after Adam and Eve sinned. To some this marks the day of Atonement, yes the day that is now call Yom Kiper.
As we should know, the blood of the sacrifice covered the sin's, yet didn't wash them away. It did serve as a reminder of the wages of sin. As a hunter, I have had the sad job once to cut the throat of my pray. Yes I missed my shot and the deer didn't drop in his tracks as I like. It is from that I can say when you hold an animal down, and feel them fight for life, it isn't a thing one ever forgets. It doesn't last long, yet it leaves an impersonation.
So why did the Jewish people not learn from that? For much the same reason that we as believers sin. It isn't something we set out to do, it is that we are carnal, and that means we are not perfect.
I have been asked how I hope to find forgiveness, or salvation, when I can't run to the alter and offer my sacrifice for sin. Oddly more than once in the same thread, by the same person. They didn't bother to read my post, or they just thought it was a great way to make me feel stupid. Needless to say it didn't work, nor did it change anything about my salvation. What it did do, was make sure I didn't listen to that person. After all, salvation is spoke of more in the O.T. than in the N.T. by more than double. So salvation as we know it was a real thing even back then.
By this we should understand that sacrifice didn't bring about salvation, as some today seem to think. Next time we will look at other sacrifices that are named. What they are, and what we do today that is much the same. Until then, keep in mind that it was a sacrifice that has opened the door to us, and washes away our sin. True it was a man that willing gave His life for this reason. Although as you will see when we get there, He also wished to live, and asked that if it were possible that cup be removed from Him. If you ever have to take a life by cutting the throat of your pary, you will see that in a new light.

True. Although I was not aware I had asked a question about circumcision. I see it as both physical and spiritual. For the Jewish people, it remains the sign of their covenant to this day, and will until the end of time. That as I said is the physical. For the believer, it is a change of heart.
You are right many Jewish people don't want to hear about Yeshua. However, as they learn that a person that isn't Jewish, holds an understanding of their ways, and does their best to walk in The Way, they ask how, why, and other questions that open the door. I wouldn't say that a person should take that as an opportunity to bet them over the head with Paul said. Rather take an apporch that isn't going push them away. Answer with things that fit into their place in life. If they are orthodox, explain how Torah fits into your life, and understanding of salvation. We don't need names, or even the Bible to speak of sound Biblical doctrine. Once we have a fuller understanding of their bible, we can teach the same plain of salvation to them from there. believe it or not, it works.

Some of your past replies make me wonder if you believe in the Scriptures the proper way?

YOU SAID IN ONE: True, after all the writers of the N.T. only had the the O.T. If we were to have a teacher today, that thought from a book that wasn't even writen, we would most likely not listen to them. The people of the first century wouldn't have been any different. Also when we look at the number of times the O.T. is quoted, or refereed to, and remove them, we wouldn't have much left.

YOU SAID IN THIS POST: After all, salvation is spoke of more in the O.T. than in the N.T. by more than double.

You do realize that ALL of the Scriptures are God breathed. The original autographs were Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the OT carries no more or less weight/truth than the NT.

Perhaps I miss-understood your point.

Having the ability to converse with another, from a basis of knowledge, is always a good thing. However, a discussion of the Torah must then be properly transitioned over to the ONLY thing that matters... The Gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of intellectual discussion is going to help some ones eternal state. Only the Holy Spirit, in Regeneration and the Gospel can do this.

For one must be in a state of believing in Jesus Christ as their savior. To do this one, must have the proper understanding of who Jesus Christ is. His Person and His Work. That takes the Bible and only the Bible because this is where the Gospel is.

Yes you have misunderstood. As we know, the N.T. was not cannoned until 350ad or so. As you to your first point I am not sure what it would be. After all there was in all truth no N.T. for the apostles to teach by. As to your second point, it is true that salvation is spoke of more in the O.T. by more than double, so again I don't see your point.

As gospel means truth, and Yeshua said
Mat 19:17“Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”
Also Yeshua use the Torah in his teachings, and spoke of the Law often. making it clear that if we love Him, we would keep them. So how is teaching them not upholding the teachings of Yeshua?

Actually the Gospel means THE GOOD NEWS or THE GLAD TIDINGS that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. It is He who is the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE.

True, and that makes it truth does it not? Now can we get back on topic.

To get back on topic, we really need to look at the truth/gospel found with in the writing of Word. Trust me when I say, and will repeat many times, none of us can say we hold an understanding that is without question the only truth out there. When it comes to sacrifice there simply is no Biblical explanation that covers every detail. Yet with a bit of study we can see what they were intended to do. As well as how even though some will say, "Not me." we all offer up a sacrifice in our own way. Before you go off the rails, please NOTE I didn't say we give any burnt offerings, or blood sacrifice. So try to make a mountain out of a mole hill that doesn't exist. (Someone will not read that and try to do so anyway.)
Now as I said, the sin sacrifice was a pitcher of things to come. When Yeshua so freely gave His life for us, we were washed clean.
What about the other forms of offerings? Do we as followers still offer up a peace offering? As we know, a peace offing is to bring one the peace that only HaShem can give us. So when you see the word Shalom, that is what it refers to. Even though some will wish to think they have no part in this offering, they in all truth do. You see, when we feel that we are growing apart from HaShem, and we take that to Him in pray, we are making that offering. We want peace and fellowship with Him. So in times of need, we turn to Him with the best offering we can, our prayers. I learned this from a Rabbi that has shown me many things I never would have seen any other way.
So has there been a fulfillment of the peace offering? Kind of yes. Yeshua gives us this peace, when we turn our life over to HaShem. Yet just as sin is a part of man kinds nature, so to is our nature for strife. Strife as we know comes in all kinds of things. It can be stress, disruption, and oddly even pride. Yet we as humans often can't see our own sin, and so we push it off as anything other than a separation from HaShem. Yet in Him is Shalom, and nothing harmful to us.
I once talked with a wise old man on this topic. He told me that he is never stressed, because he puts everything in HaShem's hands. Now I know we all do, the thing that set this mans understanding is simple. As he said, he put's it haShems hands, the tricky part is, to leave it there. He made perfect sense in that we as humans always want to pick it back up, and fix it on our own. HaShem will give it back to you, and let you deal with it your way. However that brings us back to the peace offering. If you pray for peace, then pick the problem back up, HaShem is going to let you have it. The peace we gave our offering through prayer is now in our hands and not left for HaShem to fill that need. As we know HaShem doesn't work when it is made clear by us that we don't need His help.
Next we will turn to what Yeshua has to say about keeping the Commandments of HaShem, and how without knowing it, some place one passage in conflict with others. Something I never knew I did, until I talked with my first rabbi. Oddly, we had talked enough that he seen how sinsire I was at getting to the truth, so when I did bring up the N.T. and the things I had found I needed to fill my mind and heart with Shalom, he didn't say no way. He did however inform me that my answers would come his place in life. The happy thing is, he used the Tanakh to teach me the gospel. As in truth. I know I said I may get to Yeshua in time, however as I am sure you see, we are talking of Him, just in a way that will make many happy. Stick around, you won't be sorry.