Grace Movement

so to quote Jesus and the apostle Paul’s teaching about eternal judgement is to distort truth because you’ve quoted a grace verse and explain it ?

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Still too wordy ? Or just unacceptable to you ? has Paul distorted the truth ? Or has Paul agreed with and taught the truth ?

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems to just continually agree

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To distort something you have to disagree with it maybe by finding a verse and explaining why it eliminates all the clear statements I agree with what it clearly says there and so “ grace “ is this it brings repentance and right actions

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is a distortion when I try to explain why thisnis all untrue that is just written down grace doesn’t mean “ it doesn’t matter what you do now your already saved “

Saved by grace through faith means Jesus died for our sins , now if we repent and believe the gospel we’re going to be saved from the second death

air doesn’t mean we’re already saved and nothing we do matters and we’ll never answer for our works and deeds it means we believe and understand we will do we better repent now while we can we have been informed like Noah but sometimes someone will say luck a verse from Paul and explain it erases what everyone else said and even reject what Paul thoroughly explains in his epistles they plucked the lines from were also warned about that part….

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

…Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9, 14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As Paul had written them the church concerning this longsuffering which leads us to repent because we have to be judged

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe considering more of those words in the Bible instead of just saying th res too many of them d explaining they aren’t true is the better path consider what Paul was actually teaching in the chapters of his epistles there is plenty of assurance and promises but also a lot of warnings and teachings of what we need to start doing now that we believe ……read the epistles as a whole letter and you may see things differently than if you just pluck verses and explain from there what it all has to mean because of the verse ……Paul actually does the explaining so that each vesrs makes sense with all the others

Quoting myself, respectfully, "When one is saved."

where does it say in scripture that if you are not doing 'works', you are not saved?

works do not save. works of the flesh do not save and neither does being very busy in church

yes, if a person is genuine in their belief in accepting Christ, there will be a change in that person, but the biggest change is in character...anyone can do 'works' and many do

God will define and lead a person in the works the Bible refers to, but these are basically reflective in interpersonal relationships...such as caring for widows.

So why did you not take that explanation seriously? And agree that you were distorting the grace of God and the gift of God? Why did you come up with this nonsense?

Eternal judgment does not come upon the children of God. So once again you show that YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL (for all your lengthy posts).

No it is NOT in the book.

The "filthy garments" are removed when "the robe of righteousness" of Christ is placed upon the sinner. And saved sinners will do what is pleasing to God. But if they do sin, God has various remedies to bring them to repentance.

It is truly blowing my mind how many of these people here want to preach the conditional offer of a unsure, unknowing God. The only conclusion that explains this in my mind is that these people have not been born again in truth. They have not felt the power of our God in REAL LIFE. There is no way anyone who has been changed by the one and only Creator could make the argument "I could walk away if I wanted to". I understand why and how this makes sense to the newer believer, but even when I bought into this I always qualified my statement. I wouldn't say "I'm free to walk away from my salvation if I choose to". I'd say "I don't know how anyone could ever walk away, I couldn't, but I do believe we are free to if we wanted". "I don't think God takes our free will when we are saved".

The truth is we NEVER have had "fee will", and we never will. Our wills are salves period. They are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ. Most will take this as me saying we have no will of our own, but that's not true, we have a will, we have choice, they are just never "free". These verses you guys use to "prove" we can lose salvation just aren't saying what you're trying to make them say. They're telling us more what the true Christian will be like more than what we have to start being like. If you are really saved you are spiritually resurrected and reconciled back to Him the way we were created to be, this CHANGES US FOREVER, and this is where our disconnect with these teaching God "gives us a chance" is, right here. NOPE!!!! He gives us a whole new life and tells us "Go make disciples of all nations", not "hope ya make it".

I believe God does in fact keep us and there are many indications in scripture that prove that to be true. Such as:

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8: 38-39

Jesus gave us the example of the shepherd who went out to find one lost sheep. A sheep may be lost, but it does not turn into a goat

But I disagree that we do not have free will. Of course we do. God knowing the end from the beginning means He knows what we will choose. We are not robots.

It is essentially essential that all essential essentials are essential.

‬‬
So why did you not take that explanation seriously? And agree that you were distorting the grace of God and the gift of God? Why did you come up with this nonsense?”

because I believe what the Bible says men like the apostle Paul

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it doesn’t actually seem like nonsense only if I reject it in a huff because I don’t want to agree with it lol it actually seems like Paul explaining something clearly again though only to someone whomis t going to huff and puff and pretend it doesn’t say what it says you seem to not be able to let this be true

the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

You seem to want to reject that or say Paul’s not really saying it but he says it again

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and again but this part lol

“Eternal judgment does not come upon the children of God. So once again you show that YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL “


Apparently paul doesn’t understand it is what you mean lol 😂 I’m quoting Paul from the Bible not telling you what I think …..



“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe the “nonsense “that’s actually written down in the Bible that’s why I came here to this forum …what I don’t buy into is when someone’s explaining why it’s all not true i don’t really accept that very much it seems like you have issues with what Paul wrote a lot it isn’t meant to be ignored and re interpreted as opposite what he said or w trying because he wrote another line saying the term grace that doesn’t change th e reet of what he was saying read through it before you conclude the opposite mostly I’m just quoting Paul to you and it seems it’s offended you somehow

The possibility of mind is amassing what can be called I AM all things even just thoughts play games of life mortal limitations.

Have you not read the faith without works is dead? It truly is in the Book, do not be fooled by adamant Igno rants.

Nope. All are essential. For example-

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

You guys selling we can lose salvation and sanctification is "all on us" need to read and really think about this one.
Romans 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

These works even count when you say they are needed to "keep" salvation. Back to the "essentials" I'm talking about, and really read this next one thinking about this debate.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Show me right here where it says we do ANYTHING. We don't get credit when God prepared them beforehand so we would walk in them, and you are saying our works "earn" us salvation if we keep them well enough? This is false and only those that really KNOW Him in truth and power, not because we followed rules or said the right combination of words, but because He opened our eyes and showed us the futile pointlessness and powerlessness of our selves outside of Him. He showed us what the truth is, and despite our unworthiness He GIFTS us repentance by His grace. These verses that you present that tell us we need to strive to follow Him and obey can ONLY HAPPEN BY HIS POWER. This is why we can't boast, He does it all. What you say and I say the Christian will do are the same, we both say we will obey God. The difference is I say I obey because and only because of Him, only by His power can I even attempt to obey. Outside Jesus it's impossible to please God. I obey because He saved, indwelt, and empowers me to. You say we better obey or else, as if I'm that same old man only now I know better, and better obey in fear of having my free gift snatched back. That is garbage and not true. There is more to it then getting a spirit card stamped and being free to sin all I want now, and this is a straw man used by people who only "teach" but never listen.

Anyway I veered way off. Exactly which one of these "essentials" do you deem unnecessary, which one(s)? Or maybe we don't speak to each other like this and listen to what we are actually saying, because that is severely lacking in this debate here on CC in my experience, it's very easy to just declare the other sides view rather than actually take the time to hear it from them.

I can start this. Am I mistaken when I think you're teaching that a Christian can lose their salvation by not doing works? Or at all really, but my understanding is that you believe that God saves us, as a gift, but if we don't obey then we can lose our salvation. Do I have you wrong here?

Salvation is impossible to lose.

Lol it’s a Bible discussion forum someone believing what the Bible actually says shouldn’t be surprising like for instance this which some folks simply reject

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you read this and can’t accept it the. You also have to reject this part

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this part

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By the time we get done rejecting what the Bible says about being judged by our works in the end we’ve rejected a whole consistent and plain straight forward citrine of God that leads us to repentance so we don’t perish

“Condition “ the consortiums are whatever the lord said in n the gospel d sent to all creatures for salvation like this

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭

grace doesn’t mean we can now keep sinning and won’t be judged …..grace teaches us to stop sinning while we’re alive now in this world because we have to face judgement if we repent we can have our sins remitted if we persist we’re going to have to answer

thats one very clear message from Jesus and his apostles if we accept the gospel now we’ll live but it’s going to call us to repentance if we reject it we’re not going to be saved we have to accept what Jesus said that’s where we find the “conditions “

Yes of course I have and I understand what you posted but works are not salvation. Please show me where the Bible states works guarantee salvation.

The Book...shall we just address that as the Bible? I don't appreciate the 'fooled by adamant Igno rants' you ascribe to those who state that salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Tone it down.

Grabbing a small portion of scripture and then declaring people who understand the passage better then you, apparently, does not make a class of Igno ranters. This forum is not filled with Igno ranters when they declare that works are not salvation.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3

Kindly try to remember that I never said Christians should do no works. I say what scripture states and you can read that above from Romans 3 and there are many many scriptures that attest to the exact same thing. The law, was the most inclusive rendering of laws needing to be obeyed which indicated obedience by WORKS. It saved on one.

The works that are meant as Christian works are only available through faith in Christ. One follows the other. What James is actually saying, is that true Christian works will manifest through the believer if their faith is genuine.

what if we keep serving satans Will ?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what should we that believe do when we read the warnings about our actions in every epistle ? see Paul wrote a single letter to the Ephesians early he says this

This is all true and glorious

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this also is true and spoken to the same people in the same letter

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1, 3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All of Paul’s epistles talk about how god has saved us by grace Jesus died and rose and we believe ….we’ve become hiers of salvstion but then he gives them warnings and instructions bout what he’s saying

a you are the hiers and children of God ….”now you must stop living as children of sin and corruption because Gods wrath is coming upon man for those reasons don’t be a partakers in it repent “

“this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”


These warnkngs in his epistles are spear and true and guard us against thinking “ what we do no longer matters , we never have to be judged our deeds are irrelevant we’re already saved we don’t need to repent we’re forgiven we don’t need to obey God anymore because we believe “

that’s all fable

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel isn’t a reason we now don’t need to stop sinning and obey God , it is the means and source by which we can repent and obey God so we don’t have to perish with the world

Then that person is not saved. Period. Obviously you do not understand the Gospel or salvation.

So we’re back to the semantics argument ? Your saved but then later if you sin you only thought you were saved you really weren’t ?

So then are you sinless Nehemiah ? And if anyone else here isn’t sinless you’re saying they aren’t saved period ? That’s your position ?

so you don’t think repentance has anything to do with anything probably huh ?

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭
“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 9‬ ‭

why do we need to repent though ? Paul’s said “we’re all saved by grace well
Never be judged now “

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its okay to acknolwedge what’s there it will cause repentance if we acknolwedge the truth

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repentance is important part of saving grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s because we’re going to all be judged by our words and deeds according to the gospel our actions need to change we should embrace that and let God work if we havent already I mean
And if we aren’t in line with the things Jesus taught then we haven’t yet

Where have I declared that salvation is gained by works.

Sorry, but all are ignorant, including myself, for none know all of the Word as does God Who is the Word. If it bothers you, I am afraid you do not know what is said even printed before your eyes.

No man is saved by works except by the blood of the Lamb of God. However if a man receives Him and then ignores the works He has given us all, he will have no wite garment when it comes to our being raised to His glory. Do not be so thin skined and except the truth of the Word.

Faith without works is DEAD, useless.