God's ONE Baptism For His Body!

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rogerg

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turbosixx said:
If water baptism is a depiction of the true baptism, what purpose does it serve? I hear it's an outward showing of an inward change but the bible never tells us anything close to that.

Of course God gave the spiritual gifts, but what does the bible tell us about how they are given.
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,

You didn't answer why Paul baptized them again. If water baptism is only symbolic and they were already water baptized, why do it again?
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I did answer. They were symbols. God wanted to demonstrate (to edify) of principles of salvation. He chose different types of baptism as the vehicles to do that.

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 
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rogerg

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turbosixx said:
People misunderstand 1 Cor. 12:13. Were the Corinthians water baptized when they were converted? When they read Paul's letter and see baptism are they thinking water or "spiritual baptism"
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: I Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Is Paul suggesting the Israelites were water baptized or "spiritually baptized" here: 1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: 1 Cor. 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

How can someone see Eph. 4 as "spiritual baptism" based off of one verse when everyone from the first conversion to the last were water baptized.
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"baptized into Moses. They were baptized into Moses, not into Christ. Only salvation/spiritual baptism can bring about true baptism into Christ.

Those baptized on behalf of the dead are baptized for exactly the reason we've been trying to explain to you - that water baptism
is a symbol performed for edification purposes. It is done to demonstrate the principals of salvation to those who are SPIRITUALLY dead, not PHYSICALLY dead - which all of the unsaved are. If their time to become saved has arrived, the unsaved elect will see water baptism in the correct spiritual context and come to the realization that it actually depicts spiritual principals of salvation to enlighten them of such and will come to realize that water baptism is not an end in itself having no spiritual efficacy whatsoever.
 
T

turbosixx

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Cameron143 said:
I appreciate the response. And I realize baptism is used in a variety of ways. I'm asking how it is used in these particular cases.
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Both 1 Cor. 12:13 and Eph 4:5 are water baptism.

In 1 Corinthians, baptism is mentioned 4 times. The first is the Corinthians own baptism. The second is Paul drawing a parallel to the Corinthians and Israelites by both of them being water baptized. The last reference in ch. 15 is of people baptizing for the dead. All of those are water baptism, so is 12:13. When the Corinthians read that they have been baptized into the body by one spirit, they would understand that when they were water baptized the HS added them to Christ. Like we see here.
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Ephesians were water baptized when converted. Paul even baptized some of them again who had been previously water baptized after having believed.

Everyone was water baptized upon conversion. I'm not aware of anywhere in scripture anyone being baptized by the HS.
 
T

turbosixx

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rogerg said:
Not to split hairs, but the faith imputed to them is Christ's faith.

The unbelieving Jews were the ones broken off. They were branches from the creation of the tree and so were not in grafted in to begin with. As with all not given true faith but believe/trust by their own intellect and decision to do so, they will eventually wither and fall away. If they are of the chosen, either they will not be broken off, or if broken off through unbelief, yet elect, at some point, God will impute unto them Christ's faith through becoming saved/born again, just as He does to all of the elect (think Saul/Paul). Even though some of the natural branches were broken off for unbelief, if they are of the elect, God trough salvation grants to them true faith, by which, they become grafted in again. IOW, they cannot, not, be of the elect/saved, and yet remain a branch of the tree. Conversely, if they are of the elect/saved, then they cannot, not, become a branch of the tree.
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Why would Paul warn the wild branches, that God grafted in, that they could be cut off if they do not continue in His kindness?
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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op: God's One Baptism For His One Body?

One more Pertinent question about:

If the Second ( God Says 'One' ) baptism of today is a symbolic ritual of
an 'inner working' then why not let us be Consistent and Also perform
physical circumcision for the Same symbolism of the inner
"circumcision of the heart, " eh?

Amen.
 
R

rogerg

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turbosixx said:
Why would Paul warn the wild branches, that God grafted in, that they could be cut off if they do not continue in His kindness?
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
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He made a statement to edify - teaching them. As I said in a reply to you, there are those who's faith is a temporary, manmade faith, and they will wither and fall away. Those of the wild branches who were saved, take that edification to heart and they learn; for those who aren't saved, his edification will fall upon deaf ears because they have not been given a renewed mind.
In the end, only the saved/elect, because they are the elect/saved, will end up being the branches of the tree, the others will not.
 
T

turbosixx

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rogerg said:
I did answer. They were symbols. God wanted to demonstrate (to edify) of principles of salvation. He chose different types of baptism as the vehicles to do that.
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I see passages that tell us baptism is how we die with Christ, Rom. 6. It's how we are circumcised, Col.2. How our sins are washed away, Acts 22 and so on but I'm not aware of any that tells us it's to edify.

rogerg said:
[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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In the prior verse Peter uses those saved by water in the ark as the symbol of how water baptism now saves.
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 
T

turbosixx

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rogerg said:
"baptized into Moses. They were baptized into Moses, not into Christ. Only salvation/spiritual baptism can bring about true baptism into Christ.

Those baptized on behalf of the dead are baptized for exactly the reason we've been trying to explain to you - that water baptism
is a symbol performed for edification purposes. It is done to demonstrate the principals of salvation to those who are SPIRITUALLY dead, not PHYSICALLY dead - which all of the unsaved are. If their time to become saved has arrived, the unsaved elect will see water baptism in the correct spiritual context and come to the realization that it actually depicts spiritual principals of salvation to enlighten them of such and will come to realize that water baptism is not an end in itself having no spiritual efficacy whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Paul is warning the Corinthians by drawing a parallel with the Israelites. They were water baptized just as the Israelites were. They were spiritually feed just as the Israelites were. They are following Christ just as the Israelites did.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Notice Paul uses spiritual for the Israelites food and water but not the baptism.
 
T

turbosixx

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GRACE_ambassador said:
op: God's One Baptism For His One Body?

One more Pertinent question about:

If the Second ( God Says 'One' ) baptism of today is a symbolic ritual of
an 'inner working' then why not let us be Consistent and Also perform
physical circumcision for the Same symbolism of the inner
"circumcision of the heart, " eh?

Amen.
Click to expand...
The bible never tells us baptism is symbolic. It actually accomplishes something.
Everyone recorded conversion God has given us the converts were water baptized. From the first conversion to the very last one they were water baptized. Everyone converted was water baptized.

Can you show someone baptized BY the HS?
 
T

turbosixx

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rogerg said:
In the end, only the saved/elect, because they are the elect/saved, will end up being the branches of the tree, the others will not.
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I'm sorry but this sounds contradictory. In the end. Isn't someone grafted into the tree saved? If they can be cut off, then that is not OSAS.
I'm sorry but words are how information is communicated. I do not see any of what you describe in the words Paul is telling us. if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Paul tells them if you continue. It's on them if they stay or get cut off.
 
R

rogerg

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turbosixx said:
Paul is warning the Corinthians by drawing a parallel with the Israelites. They were water baptized just as the Israelites were. They were spiritually feed just as the Israelites were. They are following Christ just as the Israelites did.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Notice Paul uses spiritual for the Israelites food and water but not the baptism.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what your point is. He doesn't use it because they were baptized into Moses, not into Christ. God
wasn't please because they didn't have true faith, as with all of the unsaved and so they did not follow Christ spiritually.

[Heb 4:2 KJV] 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
Both 1 Cor. 12:13 and Eph 4:5 are water baptism.

In 1 Corinthians, baptism is mentioned 4 times. The first is the Corinthians own baptism. The second is Paul drawing a parallel to the Corinthians and Israelites by both of them being water baptized. The last reference in ch. 15 is of people baptizing for the dead. All of those are water baptism, so is 12:13. When the Corinthians read that they have been baptized into the body by one spirit, they would understand that when they were water baptized the HS added them to Christ. Like we see here.
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Ephesians were water baptized when converted. Paul even baptized some of them again who had been previously water baptized after having believed.

Everyone was water baptized upon conversion. I'm not aware of anywhere in scripture anyone being baptized by the HS.
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Ok. But those verses I mentioned are clearly spiritual and done by the Holy Spirit. Our differences aren't actually about baptism, but scripture.
 
R

rogerg

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turbosixx said:
I'm sorry but this sounds contradictory. In the end. Isn't someone grafted into the tree saved? If they can be cut off, then that is not OSAS.
I'm sorry but words are how information is communicated. I do not see any of what you describe in the words Paul is telling us. if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Paul tells them if you continue. It's on them if they stay or get cut off.
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Paul is making a doctrine known unto them. Imparting something (a doctrine) doesn't mean those saved (the true hearers) could/would fall. Paul said the "if you" because not all were saved, so the "if you" represented the unsaved, but from it, the saved became wiser, gained understanding, and knowledge of salvation. Those saved WILL continue in His goodness but it is only because of God that they do - it is not of themselves.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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op: God's One Baptism For His One Body?

Concerning the idea of this 'context of re - baptism'?:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be
any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?
And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying
unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after
him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
​
[ Incorrect 'break' of "past tense to present tense" and connection of them/they ]
[ men adding baptized ↓ "by Paul" ↓ ]:​

When they heard this, they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;
and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. " (Acts 19:2-6)

In this last supposed baptism / re-baptism in the Acts Transition
From Law to Grace, this may help solve the Confusion:

God's Transition Context: "hearing about and receiving The Holy Ghost!":

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye​
believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard​
whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto​
what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.​
​
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,​
saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which​
should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this,​
they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus..."​
​
[ Correct 'break' of "past tense to present tense" and ​
Correct Connection of 'people/they' ]​
​
"...And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came​
on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. " (Acts 19:2-6)​
​
[ Notice how Far Distant God Has Made 'this' From Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:48, eh? ]

Thus, this is Another Perfectly Harmonious Point of Explanation of
God's One { Spiritual } Baptism For His One Body, of Grace, Today, showing
the former 'work of water baptism' has passed "off the scene" - God Makes
This Abundantly Clear:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace​
is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace:​
otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6)​

Amen.
 
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tylerbones1313

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The moment of grace began the moment Christ died and rose again. That means under the covenant of Grace was the command to be water baptized. If it is a command from my Lord, my God and My Savior, I don't view it as works but and act of grace.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

So even if it's considered works and you read according to Scripture that it is right and good and you do it not than it is sin.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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tylerbones1313 said:
The moment of grace began the moment Christ died and rose again. That means under the covenant of Grace was the command to be water baptized. If it is a command from my Lord, my God and My Savior, I don't view it as works but and act of grace.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

So even if it's considered works and you read according to Scripture that it is right and good and you do it not than it is sin.
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Grace began the moment God created Adam. Every interaction between God and man from that point forward has been grace. Every sunset, every savoring of a favorite dessert, every hug; all made possible by a benevolent benefactor, completely free of merit.
 
T

tylerbones1313

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Cameron143 said:
Grace began the moment God created Adam. Every interaction between God and man from that point forward has been grace. Every sunset, every savoring of a favorite dessert, every hug; all made possible by a benevolent benefactor, completely free of merit.
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Pay special attention to the dispensation of Law and Grace. Study the Word to show yourself approved before God. God bless you all and be well my brothers and sister in the Lord.

Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting the Bible that divides human history into seven distinct periods, or dispensations. These dispensations are believed to represent different ways in which God has interacted with humanity. The seven dispensations are:

Dispensation of Innocence (Genesis 1:28-30 and 2:15-17)
This dispensation lasted from the creation of Adam and Eve until their fall from grace. During this time, humanity was in a state of perfect innocence and had direct fellowship with God.

Dispensation of Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22)
This dispensation lasted from the fall of Adam and Eve until the flood. During this time, humanity was under the guidance of their conscience, but they were prone to sin and rebellion against God.

Dispensation of Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32)
This dispensation lasted from the flood until the call of Abraham. During this time, human government was established as a means of restraining sin and violence.

Dispensation of Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25)
This dispensation lasted from the call of Abraham until the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. During this time, God made promises to Abraham and his descendants, and He began to reveal His plan of salvation for humanity.

Dispensation of Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4)
This dispensation lasted from the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai until the Day of Pentecost. During this time, the Law of Moses was in effect, and it served to reveal humanity's sinfulness and need for salvation.

Dispensation of Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3)
This dispensation began on the Day of Pentecost and is still ongoing. During this time, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells believers and empowers them to live holy lives.

Dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6)
This dispensation will begin after the return of Christ and will last for 1,000 years. During this time, Christ will reign on earth in righteousness and peace, and Satan will be bound.
 
R

rogerg

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tylerbones1313 said:
Pay special attention to the dispensation of Law and Grace. Study the Word to show yourself approved before God. God bless you all and be well my brothers and sister in the Lord.

Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting the Bible that divides human history into seven distinct periods, or dispensations. These dispensations are believed to represent different ways in which God has interacted with humanity. The seven dispensations are:

Dispensation of Innocence (Genesis 1:28-30 and 2:15-17)
This dispensation lasted from the creation of Adam and Eve until their fall from grace. During this time, humanity was in a state of perfect innocence and had direct fellowship with God.

Dispensation of Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22)
This dispensation lasted from the fall of Adam and Eve until the flood. During this time, humanity was under the guidance of their conscience, but they were prone to sin and rebellion against God.

Dispensation of Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32)
This dispensation lasted from the flood until the call of Abraham. During this time, human government was established as a means of restraining sin and violence.

Dispensation of Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25)
This dispensation lasted from the call of Abraham until the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. During this time, God made promises to Abraham and his descendants, and He began to reveal His plan of salvation for humanity.

Dispensation of Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4)
This dispensation lasted from the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai until the Day of Pentecost. During this time, the Law of Moses was in effect, and it served to reveal humanity's sinfulness and need for salvation.

Dispensation of Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3)
This dispensation began on the Day of Pentecost and is still ongoing. During this time, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells believers and empowers them to live holy lives.

Dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6)
This dispensation will begin after the return of Christ and will last for 1,000 years. During this time, Christ will reign on earth in righteousness and peace, and Satan will be bound.
Click to expand...
But does the Bible itself tell/instruct us anywhere to use that method?
 
T

turbosixx

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rogerg said:
I don't understand what your point is. He doesn't use it because they were baptized into Moses, not into Christ. God
wasn't please because they didn't have true faith, as with all of the unsaved and so they did not follow Christ spiritually.

[Heb 4:2 KJV] 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Click to expand...
Sorry, let me try a different approach.

My point is baptism is mentioned 4 times in 1 Cor. When the Corinthians read the letter from Paul, they understand baptism as water baptism. In ch. 1 the baptism mentioned is their own water baptism. In ch. 10 the baptism is the Israelites passing through the water of the sea and cloud. In ch. 15 the baptism is people water baptizing for the dead.
So when the Corinthians read 12:13, they understand it as water baptism as well. That's all they know. It also makes sense. Everyone converted was water baptized and then the HS added them. We see that in the first conversions. Only those baptized were added.
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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tylerbones1313 said:
Pay special attention to the dispensation of Law and Grace. Study the Word to show yourself approved before God. God bless you all and be well my brothers and sister in the Lord.

Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting the Bible that divides human history into seven distinct periods, or dispensations. These dispensations are believed to represent different ways in which God has interacted with humanity. The seven dispensations are:

Dispensation of Innocence (Genesis 1:28-30 and 2:15-17)
This dispensation lasted from the creation of Adam and Eve until their fall from grace. During this time, humanity was in a state of perfect innocence and had direct fellowship with God.

Dispensation of Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22)
This dispensation lasted from the fall of Adam and Eve until the flood. During this time, humanity was under the guidance of their conscience, but they were prone to sin and rebellion against God.

Dispensation of Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32)
This dispensation lasted from the flood until the call of Abraham. During this time, human government was established as a means of restraining sin and violence.

Dispensation of Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25)
This dispensation lasted from the call of Abraham until the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. During this time, God made promises to Abraham and his descendants, and He began to reveal His plan of salvation for humanity.

Dispensation of Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4)
This dispensation lasted from the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai until the Day of Pentecost. During this time, the Law of Moses was in effect, and it served to reveal humanity's sinfulness and need for salvation.

Dispensation of Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3)
This dispensation began on the Day of Pentecost and is still ongoing. During this time, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells believers and empowers them to live holy lives.

Dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6)
This dispensation will begin after the return of Christ and will last for 1,000 years. During this time, Christ will reign on earth in righteousness and peace, and Satan will be bound.
Click to expand...
I do believe God has dealt with mankind differently at different times. But every action on God's behalf towards man has been gracious, unless you believe man earned the right to exist.
 
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