In heaven we will have a body of flesh and blood. Very interesting because angels can take on human form
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i do not agree with the modern prevailing kenosis theory.
i think the evidence is that He set aside His glory, not His deity. deity is a function of 'ousia' - His substance, or essence,and tgat cannot be changed, else ((among other things)) we contradict Hebrews 12:8 - He is not the same if He is not-God and the be ones-God.
we might as well be Mormons if we thought that, ha!
so in John 17 He prays, glorify Me, not deify me
i think the evidence is that He set aside His glory, not His deity. deity is a function of 'ousia' - His substance, or essence,and tgat cannot be changed, else ((among other things)) we contradict Hebrews 12:8 - He is not the same if He is not-God and the be ones-God.
we might as well be Mormons if we thought that, ha!
so in John 17 He prays, glorify Me, not deify me
What do you think was included in "the glory" you say the Son set aside?
There are three bodies. There is the natural body we have now. Flesh, blood and bone: whose life is in the blood, inhabited by a soul and spirit.
2 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There is the heavenly body we will receive after death before the resurrection. Soul and spirit that has left the physical body and been clothed in a unique individual heavenly tabernacle to be with the Lord in heaven temporarily.
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
There is the spiritual body which is the heavenly body clothed upon with a resurrected physical body of flesh and bone inhabited by a soul and spirit and whose life is in the spirit.
2 Cor. 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Jesus was in this third body when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection.
2 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There is the heavenly body we will receive after death before the resurrection. Soul and spirit that has left the physical body and been clothed in a unique individual heavenly tabernacle to be with the Lord in heaven temporarily.
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
There is the spiritual body which is the heavenly body clothed upon with a resurrected physical body of flesh and bone inhabited by a soul and spirit and whose life is in the spirit.
2 Cor. 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Jesus was in this third body when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection.
Consider:
Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
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There is the heavenly body we will receive after death before the resurrection. Soul and spirit that has left the physical body and been clothed in a unique individual heavenly tabernacle to be with the Lord in heaven temporarily.
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is a tabernacle, a building not made with hands in which we are present with the Lord after death until the resurrection.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is a tabernacle, a building not made with hands in which we are present with the Lord after death until the resurrection.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
No, the only heavenly body is the one that is given at the resurrection. Before the resurrection the dead in Christ are bodiless.
Paul doesn't say the heavenly body is received right after death. The new body is in heaven, and was in heaven when Paul was still alive, and it is in heaven now but the spirits of the dead are not given those bodies until the resurrection. There is no pre-resurrection resurrection and no temporary body inbetween the mortal human body and the new heavenly body.
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is a tabernacle, a building not made with hands in which we are present with the Lord after death until the resurrection.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is a tabernacle, a building not made with hands in which we are present with the Lord after death until the resurrection.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, (kataluthEi: aorist passive subjunctive, were to begin decomposing) we have (echomev: present active indicative, we are continuing to have at the same time) a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (not "eternally in the heavens" but "an eternal body" at that time in the heavens)
I agree that here in this verse Paul does not categorically state that we receive that "body eternal in the heavens" immediately upon death. It could mean "If we die and decompose before Christ's return we have the expectation of a new body, not made with hand eternal in the heavens that we will receive at the first resurrection. However the greek tenses also support the idea that while our body is decaying we already at the same time have a body in heaven.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle (the present earthly body) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (not to do away completely with any physical body) , but clothed upon (but our physical body have added to it soul and spirit components), that mortality might be swallowed up of life (That the physical body that is now mortal would become a physical body that is immortal)
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God (i.e. God made us to have ultimately an immortal physical body inhabited by an immortal soul an immortal spirit and the immortal God) who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (this mortal physical body), we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent (ekdEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be absent) from the body (from this present mortal physical body), and to be present (endEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be present) with the Lord .
That is why I believe this passage supports us at death moving immediately from this present mortal physical body into a heavenly non-physical body and coming back with Him in that heavenly body which the Lord will integrate with our re-created physical body at the resurrection to produce the immortal physical human beings that v. 5 says God originally wrought us for.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
I agree that here in this verse Paul does not categorically state that we receive that "body eternal in the heavens" immediately upon death. It could mean "If we die and decompose before Christ's return we have the expectation of a new body, not made with hand eternal in the heavens that we will receive at the first resurrection. However the greek tenses also support the idea that while our body is decaying we already at the same time have a body in heaven.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle (the present earthly body) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (not to do away completely with any physical body) , but clothed upon (but our physical body have added to it soul and spirit components), that mortality might be swallowed up of life (That the physical body that is now mortal would become a physical body that is immortal)
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God (i.e. God made us to have ultimately an immortal physical body inhabited by an immortal soul an immortal spirit and the immortal God) who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (this mortal physical body), we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent (ekdEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be absent) from the body (from this present mortal physical body), and to be present (endEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be present) with the Lord .
That is why I believe this passage supports us at death moving immediately from this present mortal physical body into a heavenly non-physical body and coming back with Him in that heavenly body which the Lord will integrate with our re-created physical body at the resurrection to produce the immortal physical human beings that v. 5 says God originally wrought us for.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
2 Cor. 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, (kataluthEi: aorist passive subjunctive, were to begin decomposing) we have (echomev: present active indicative, we are continuing to have at the same time) a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (not "eternally in the heavens" but "an eternal body" at that time in the heavens)
I agree that here in this verse Paul does not categorically state that we receive that "body eternal in the heavens" immediately upon death. It could mean "If we die and decompose before Christ's return we have the expectation of a new body, not made with hand eternal in the heavens that we will receive at the first resurrection. However the greek tenses also support the idea that while our body is decaying we already at the same time have a body in heaven.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle (the present earthly body) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (not to do away completely with any physical body) , but clothed upon (but our physical body have added to it soul and spirit components), that mortality might be swallowed up of life (That the physical body that is now mortal would become a physical body that is immortal)
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God (i.e. God made us to have ultimately an immortal physical body inhabited by an immortal soul an immortal spirit and the immortal God) who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (this mortal physical body), we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent (ekdEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be absent) from the body (from this present mortal physical body), and to be present (endEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be present) with the Lord .
That is why I believe this passage supports us at death moving immediately from this present mortal physical body into a heavenly non-physical body and coming back with Him in that heavenly body which the Lord will integrate with our re-created physical body at the resurrection to produce the immortal physical human beings that v. 5 says God originally wrought us for.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
I agree that here in this verse Paul does not categorically state that we receive that "body eternal in the heavens" immediately upon death. It could mean "If we die and decompose before Christ's return we have the expectation of a new body, not made with hand eternal in the heavens that we will receive at the first resurrection. However the greek tenses also support the idea that while our body is decaying we already at the same time have a body in heaven.
2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle (the present earthly body) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (not to do away completely with any physical body) , but clothed upon (but our physical body have added to it soul and spirit components), that mortality might be swallowed up of life (That the physical body that is now mortal would become a physical body that is immortal)
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God (i.e. God made us to have ultimately an immortal physical body inhabited by an immortal soul an immortal spirit and the immortal God) who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (this mortal physical body), we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent (ekdEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be absent) from the body (from this present mortal physical body), and to be present (endEmEsai: aorist active infinitive, to begin to be present) with the Lord .
That is why I believe this passage supports us at death moving immediately from this present mortal physical body into a heavenly non-physical body and coming back with Him in that heavenly body which the Lord will integrate with our re-created physical body at the resurrection to produce the immortal physical human beings that v. 5 says God originally wrought us for.
How do you exegete these verses to say otherwise?
They do not speak of a nonphysical body which wouldn't be needed as the spirit/soul already is non-physical. We don't need or will have a body after death until resurrection. Paul spoke of two bodies, not three:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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Please don't jump to another verse that you think supports your opinion. Could you please first exegete the text I quoted from 2 Cor 5:1-8, and also show why my exegesis is unfaithful to the greek text of 2 Cor. 5:1-8.
Either admit my exegesis of 2 Cor.5 is valid from the Greek, or prove it invalid from the Greek. Once you have admitted the text's ambigiity or proven its singular sense, then we can move on to 2 Cor. 15:42-44 and consider what it means. Simply shouting a different text at me in red font is not a convincing argument concerning the interpretation of the 1 Cor. 5 text.
Merely dueling selected scattered texts is not serious engagement with any particular text. So please show your own exegesis of 1 Cor. 5:1-8 before heading off down another rabbit trail.
BTW saying that there is a beginning and an end does not prove there is nothing between them.
Either admit my exegesis of 2 Cor.5 is valid from the Greek, or prove it invalid from the Greek. Once you have admitted the text's ambigiity or proven its singular sense, then we can move on to 2 Cor. 15:42-44 and consider what it means. Simply shouting a different text at me in red font is not a convincing argument concerning the interpretation of the 1 Cor. 5 text.
Merely dueling selected scattered texts is not serious engagement with any particular text. So please show your own exegesis of 1 Cor. 5:1-8 before heading off down another rabbit trail.
BTW saying that there is a beginning and an end does not prove there is nothing between them.
Are you referring to -
Gen. 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair (hebrew tob , i.e. good as on all tje good things mafe in Genesis 1); and they took them wives (hebrew ishsha i.e. women) of all which they chose.
3¶And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto (may be a term for having sexual intercourse, but also may simply mean "entered into the rooms they were in as Gabriel came in unto Mary to announce her selection to bare Messiah, or may mean entered into he women's bodies as demons still enter in unto bodies) the daughters of men (the "good women" were selected by demons and seduced into inviting the demons into their bodies to enter the children in their wombs with the promise to make their children exceptional), and they bare children to them (the women dedicated the children to the demons) the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown ( tjese demon possessed children were additionally empowered by the indwelling demons to have superhuman powers).
5¶And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(This production line of superhuman progeny inspired an arms race where more and more women worshipped and served demons to have children able to compete with the other demon-posessed children, making tje culture exceedingly wicked.
Gen. 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair (hebrew tob , i.e. good as on all tje good things mafe in Genesis 1); and they took them wives (hebrew ishsha i.e. women) of all which they chose.
3¶And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto (may be a term for having sexual intercourse, but also may simply mean "entered into the rooms they were in as Gabriel came in unto Mary to announce her selection to bare Messiah, or may mean entered into he women's bodies as demons still enter in unto bodies) the daughters of men (the "good women" were selected by demons and seduced into inviting the demons into their bodies to enter the children in their wombs with the promise to make their children exceptional), and they bare children to them (the women dedicated the children to the demons) the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown ( tjese demon possessed children were additionally empowered by the indwelling demons to have superhuman powers).
5¶And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(This production line of superhuman progeny inspired an arms race where more and more women worshipped and served demons to have children able to compete with the other demon-posessed children, making tje culture exceedingly wicked.
