Andy Stanley's Apostasy

Matthew 7:20
“Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

One cannot bath in false doctrines for one's whole life and not be adversely affected. Andy had a Bible and Andy could read. Sometimes one has to choose between standing for the truth or compromising it for family and fame and financial support.

No, my friend. That is not only a distraction, but that is a false correlation. Understanding that Salvation is conditional has no correlation to salvation by works or belief that sinless perfection is possible before glorification. The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith and that the Just must LIVE BY FAITH. No one is born saved, and Salvation is not a license to live any old way on wants for the rest of one's days. Apostacy happens. The Bible is chocked full of warnings and ways to avoid this sad fate.

Hebrews 10:
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This is a warning and a way, not a license. The author knew that apostacy was a possibility for all who did not heed these warnings. We must continue to live by faith.

Give us an actual document which states this from anyone who believes in the eternal security of the believer. A primary source.

I knew of a young man who was living in sin. Not having a personal relationship with Jesus, he went to a Baptist preacher who He had sat under during His youth to discuss how to get right with God. The Baptist minister replied to him, "Don't worry about it. I recall baptizing you many years ago when you were attending my Church. You are good to go."

I'm not making that up.

I NEVER said this and why would you ask me that question?

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

*Verses 9 and 10 are 'descriptive' of the unrighteous and not the righteous.

Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Although you can find nut case preachers in both the OSAS and NOSAS camp, I've never heard a legitimate OSAS preacher actually "encourage" people to just go ahead and keep living in sin. My Pastor certainly DOES NOT teach that. Now although I'm not a regular listener of Charles Stanley, I have listened to some of his sermons on TV in the past and I've never heard him actually "encourage" people to just keep living in sin/live like the devil etc.. Sounds like a straw man argument to me. You sound like an extremist who enjoys attacking OSAS believers. I really don't appreciate straw man arguments and/or false accusations. You need to be fair and honest. Now just because certain people in the NOSAS camp teach salvation by works and sinless perfection, I don't unfairly accuse everyone in the NOSAS camp of teaching that as well.

I know NOSAS teachers who are a stumbling block to many by telling them that salvation is obtained by works and is also maintained by works and/or sinless perfection. Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works or sinless perfection. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 1:8-10) Such people who buy into that false gospel end up living their life on a tight rope believing at any moment they can fall off and lose their salvation. I once knew a man who was absolutely miserable, believing that every time he messed up, even in the smallest way that he lost his salvation and had to regain it all over again. He attended a radical Pentecostal style church. I actually saw him in tears once, convinced he lost his salvation because he got into an argument with his wife over the kids and they yelled at each other. Show me a married couple who has never once been in an argument, and I'll show you two liars.

Define "lives in sin." Are you talking about practicing sin, lifestyle or bent of life, or sinless perfection?

There is nothing wrong with being concerned about radical teachers who abuse the OSAS doctrine by teaching you can go out and sin all you want, no biggie, you will remain saved no matter how much you live like the devil etc.. I certainly don't teach that and anyone who does is in error. Now there is something wrong with falsely accusing EVERYONE in the OSAS camp of teaching that. Hence, OSAS spat. More like OSAS derangement syndrome!

That Baptist minister actually told him he was good to go based on his baptism many years ago? If the young man had no personal relationship with Jesus and was living a lifestyle of sin (practicing sin) then he obviously was not saved in the first place. We need to be careful with church labels too. Not all Baptist churches teach the exact same doctrine.

That would be incorrect.

We follow the scripture which clearly teaches sin cannot break, destroy, or invalidate the gift of being redeemed and justified in Christ.

ironically, abiding in the lie of having no sin is actually living in sin. And so, I can't put much merit on what else anyone that'd do this might say, even when they say, 'no, really.' I mean, if they are 'living' on that lie, then it is obvious that they're habitual liars.

I'll tell you what's "very sad".

YOU, equating those that know they are eternally saved, with some Paster that says it's ok to be a homosexual.

We KNOW the One who died for us and rose again, and gave us eternal life, and He KNOWS us.

How about you?

A born again person would remain saved, but no we do not teach that we can live like the devil.

We teach God chastises those He loves even unto death.
We teach that sin is destructive even though every single sin has been paid for at the cross.

What Stanley is teaching is that it is not a sin, therefore no need for it to be covered by the blood of Christ.

The OP specifically linked the two. So the thread is essentially about both.

This anecdote is without meaning or application to anything here.

In other words, what does this have to do with price of beans in Katmandu?

It's neither a distraction or a false correlation for false teachers with extreme views from the NOSAS camp. Now keep in mind that I'm not accusing EVERYONE in the NOSAS camp of being an extremist with these same views. Don't be too quick to join hands with everyone in the NOSAS camp and sing "kumbaya" just because you both oppose OSAS and I will do the same with folks in the OSAS camp who may have extreme views as well.

Salvation is conditional on grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) There are certain folks in the NOSAS camp who believe that salvation is maintained by works. I've had conversations with such folks over the years on various Christian forums. There are also folks in the NOSAS camp who believe that sinless perfection is not only possible before glorification but is mandatory in this life in order to receive eternal life.

I know that no one is born saved, and that salvation is not a license to sin. Apostacy does happen, yet who said these folks who apostatized and were exposed to the knowledge of the truth, fully embraced the knowledge of the truth and were truly born again? We find genuine believers and false believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. (Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:4-9; 10:26-39; 12:15)

By the time we get down to verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was not referring to saved believers: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Those who apostatize draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who heed the warning do not draw back to perdition but believe to the saving of the soul. Genuine believers live by faith.

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.

Go watch the OSAS teachers on youtube... they all put in a disclaimer saying one cannot lose their salvation, ever.. period!


I know people doing the same thing!



Why WOULDN'T you say that? If it's not possible for one to lose their salvation, then you may as well be like your boy Andy Stanley and embrace the gay peoples as your brethren in the Lord!



Yes, and after one becomes a Christian... if they go back to living in sin, they become UNrighteous.



That don't have to... all they have to do is claim "you can never lose your salvation" and many will hear that and think it's all good they can keep their favorite sins and still be right with the Lord!

Here is the whole issue with this thread:
A.) We all agree Andy Stanley has turned into a nutter.
B.) Do we really want to make the claim that OSAS "CAUSED" all of his weird views on homosexuality?
C.) Logically, we simply cannot show that OSAS causes his weird views.
D.) WHY NOT?
a. We can show there are OSAS people who do NOT share Andy's weird homosexual views (so OSAS is not a necessary cause).
b. We can show there are NON-OSAS peple who DO share all of his weird views (so this is proof there are other things which can cause Andy's views).
E.) Logically there is just no connection... you cannot claim, logically, that OSAS is the CAUSE of Andy's bad doctrine on homosexuality.


Conclusion:
1.) It's fine if you dislike Andy's views on homosexuality... I'd be in agreement.
2.) It's fine if you disagree with the doctrine of OSAS... that is certainly open for polite biblical debate.
3.) However, there is simply no logical claim to be made that the two are linked in a CAUSAL relationship: you cannot claim, logically, that OSAS is the CAUSE of Andy's weird views on homosexuality.
- Many people are OSAS, and don't agree with Andy's views on homosexuality... that is proof that OSAS is not a necessary cause of those views.




.

People have been using God's grace as an excuse to sin from the get-go:

"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 1:4

"But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, 'Let us do evil that good may come'?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just." Romans 3:5-8

I agree.

If you know he didn't say that, but continue to imply that he did (or would), you are no better than the homosexual-affirming pastor you decry...

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”