Works Complete Faith?

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romans113336

romans113336

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Consider...

...what many scholars say regarding this James 2 passage, that because of the structure (and here referring to what they term an Inclusio), the interloper / questioner's words (James is presenting) cover more than just verse 18 but continue on through verse 19 (so that it is the interloper / questioner speaking about "the demons also believe and..."); so that James's next words (his response) to that interloper / questioner starts where it says, "wilt thou know, O vain man, that _______?" in v.20 [etc], which changes how one reads those following couple / few verses, as James responding to the interloper / questioner's words in two verses (not merely the one).
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James is simply saying "do you want to be like a demon? They 'believe', but they aren't going to do good deeds--you have to do good after you believe. Belief is only part of what God wants from you. Now it is expected you will do the other part. Be God's friend. Jesus qualfies 'friends' as those who do what ever He asks them to do. Do good."

TheDivineWatermark said:
...my additional thoughts (and I must be brief here due to time constraints): later where it says in v.23 the combination of both "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD," note that he was "called the friend of God" by other humans... See this in 2Chron20:7. This, therefore is the "justified" reference in this James 2 passage: justified in the sight of other humans (they thus can "SEE" what is otherwise an "invisible" thing, so to speak).
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1. This can't be true, because the issue is salvation ("Can such faith save him?"), and we're not "saved" because men declare us "justified" or "friends of God". All the unbelieving Jews congratulate one another along these lines, but they're all sons of satan.

2. James is getting at what the lifestyle of the Christian is to be.
He accepts that they are "married" to God (Ja 4 "adulteresses!")
He is calling them to repentance--to bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
It's very simple.

TheDivineWatermark said:
Abraham's justification before God / by God was not [held] "in question" (from God's perspective) for something like "30 years" between the time when that which Romans 4:2-4 speaks of (and James 2:23a "Abraham BELIEVED God...") and the time when he [much] later "offered Isaac... upon the altar" (James 2:21).
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Abraham "walked in the footsteps of faith" (Ro 4) in the meantime.

What I understand is that there is the justification that happens at the time we believe, but there is still a coming judgment at which only doers of good will be declared justified (Ro 2:6-16, etc). Paul doesn't say "if Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the Law", he says "when they do it", and he is referring to believing Gentiles ("they show the work of the Law written on the heart [reference to the New Covenant promise in, eg, Jer 31:31-34]... circumcised in the heart by the Spirit").

So, for instance, Paul says to the Corinthians, "purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened"--that is, you can possess a spiritual birthright, but forfeit it, like Esau, through your sinfulness, as Paul says, "if you live after the flesh, you will die" (Ro 8:12).

I endeavor to believe all of Scripture, not just one doctrine here or there. I must believe all of it.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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romans113336 said:
James is simply saying "do you want to be like a demon?
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Not exactly. The "faith" of demons is more like the recognition that God and Christ are in fact sovereign, and that one day they (the demons) will therefore end up in the Lake of Fire. This is not really "faith" but fearfulness.
 
romans113336

romans113336

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Nehemiah6 said:
Not exactly. The "faith" of demons is more like the recognition that God and Christ are in fact sovereign, and that one day they (the demons) will therefore end up in the Lake of Fire. This is not really "faith" but fearfulness.
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Right, James is denouncing the idea of faith alone justifying when it results in people not living good works afterward, and he uses demons, which the audience will definitely denounce and reject as "models" for Christians to follow, to help them see the folly of the idea, because demons "believe" but do not do good works.
 
romans113336

romans113336

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#44
Nehemiah6 said:
Not exactly. The "faith" of demons is more like the recognition that God and Christ are in fact sovereign, and that one day they (the demons) will therefore end up in the Lake of Fire. This is not really "faith" but fearfulness.
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The precise nature of the demons' faith (πιστεύουσιν--the word used for "faith") doesn't matter, James' issue is simply that faith alone doesn't cut it, and, to prove his point, he uses demons as an example. It's not more complicated than that.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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romans113336 said:
Abraham "walked in the footsteps of faith" (Ro 4) in the meantime.
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Yeah, and then (those years later) the "TRIAL OF HIS FAITH" came... which is what I see James covering:

James 1:3-4 -

"Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect [/mature] and entire, wanting nothing." (in the here and now).






[...2:22 (in James's response to the questioner's 2 verses) says, "... THE faith was made perfect?" (rather than just "faith")... But the important thing being "the faith wrought [G4950 - synergeō - worked-together] with the works..." (that is, in his walk); We can't ignore what Romans 4:2-5 states, however :) , and the fact that James 2:23 speaks of two things ("AND"), not just the one :) ]



Just my two cents on the matter. = )
 
romans113336

romans113336

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Yeah, and then (those years later) the "TRIAL OF HIS FAITH" came... which is what I see James covering:

James 1:3-4 -

"Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect [/mature] and entire, wanting nothing." (in the here and now).






[...2:22 (in James's response to the questioner's 2 verses) says, "... THE faith was made perfect?" (rather than just "faith")... But the important thing being "the faith wrought [G4950 - synergeō - worked-together] with the works..." (that is, in his walk); We can't ignore what Romans 4:2-5 states, however :) , and the fact that James 2:23 speaks of two things ("AND"), not just the one :) ]



Just my two cents on the matter. = )
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In order for you to interpret Ro 4:2-5 the way you are (ie, "Nah, works we do don't affect our 'justified' standing in Christ"), you're going to have to ignore Ro 14:23 (Christians are "condemned" if they sin--ie, their justification is thwarted, just as it says everywhere in Scripture).

I'll deal with some other points later, God-willing, but, from what I see, I'm just accepting the simple doctrine James is teaching, but you seem to be wanting to turn it into complicated gobbledygook as a smokescreen for your real belief in a misunderstanding of "faith alone" lol
 
romans113336

romans113336

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#47
TheDivineWatermark said:
Yeah, and then (those years later) the "TRIAL OF HIS FAITH" came... which is what I see James covering:

James 1:3-4 -

"Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect [/mature] and entire, wanting nothing." (in the here and now).






[...2:22 (in James's response to the questioner's 2 verses) says, "... THE faith was made perfect?" (rather than just "faith")... But the important thing being "the faith wrought [G4950 - synergeō - worked-together] with the works..." (that is, in his walk); We can't ignore what Romans 4:2-5 states, however :) , and the fact that James 2:23 speaks of two things ("AND"), not just the one :) ]



Just my two cents on the matter. = )
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romans113336 said:
... you seem to be wanting to turn it into complicated gobbledygook as a smokescreen for your real belief in a misunderstanding of "faith alone" lol
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It's so difficult to read the Bible for what it's so clearly saying when you have prior commitments to foreign doctrines which no early church believed.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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Nehemiah6 said:
Not exactly. The "faith" of demons is more like the recognition that God and Christ are in fact sovereign, and that one day they (the demons) will therefore end up in the Lake of Fire. This is not really "faith" but fearfulness.
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In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God", but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
 
romans113336

romans113336

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mailmandan said:
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God", but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
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The precise nature of their faith is not relevant (as noted, Jesus never said that demons could be saved by faith); James just uses them as an example proving his main point : "I need you guys to add good works to your faith. Do you want to be like a demon who believes [the Greek for 'faith' is used] but doesn't do good? Of course not! So add good deeds to your faith."
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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romans113336 said:
The precise nature of their faith is not relevant (as noted, Jesus never said that demons could be saved by faith); James just uses them as an example proving his main point : "I need you guys to add good works to your faith. Do you want to be like a demon who believes [the Greek for 'faith' is used] but doesn't do good? Of course not! So add good deeds to your faith."
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In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (vs. 23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
 
romans113336

romans113336

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mailmandan said:
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
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The entire point is "add works to your faith", there's no cryptic "real" and "false" faith reference. Just as there is no "real" and "false" body (representing faith), only an incomplete body (without its spirit), and a complete body (with its spirit).
Simple.

mailmandan said:
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (vs. 23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
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No, Abraham was justified.
See how easy that is?
I just say what James says.
Then I see this also applies to Christians (Ro 2:6-16 ; 14:23). They retain justification if they walk in faith, they become "condemned" if they don't. Simple.
There is a justification upon hearing with faith, but there is also a coming judgment at which only doers of the good will be justified. Simple.
It's both/and not either/or.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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romans113336 said:
In order for you to interpret Ro 4:2-5 the way you are (ie, "Nah, works we do don't affect our 'justified' standing in Christ"), you're going to have to ignore Ro 14:23 (Christians are "condemned" if they sin--ie, their justification is thwarted, just as it says everywhere in Scripture).
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As I see it, you're taking Romans 14 out of context... the "practical application" section of Romans (just like ppl tend to blur all of Romans together, smooshing-it-all-up-together [into one big mish-mash of mush]. lol)



In that regard, I fairly agree with what Wm R Newell has to say about Rom14:23 (and its context), here:


[quoting Newell]

Verse 22:

Hast thou faith? Have [it] to thyself before God. Blessed is he that doth not judge himself in the acts which he alloweth [in his own life].

“It is much more blessed to have a liberty before God which we do not use on account of our brother's weakness, than to insist on our liberty, though it be distinctly given. The man whom Paul declares happy' is he who can eat what he pleases and drink what he pleases, without any qualms of conscience to condemn him while he does so.” These words (from Sanday) are true. The word translated “allows,” or “permits,” or “approves,” is literally, “puts to the test.” The picture is of a man having before him a question of conscience (of days, meats, or whatever), whose decisions in the use of his liberty are such that he does not go beyond his knowledge, and persuasion in the Lord Jesus (verse 14). For, though he have in his mind that he is free in such or such a matter, if his conscience check him, he “judges” himself if he rushes ahead in an action. To the strong believer the apostle speaks this word: “Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God.” You have probably known people whom in this sense you did not know! They had learned, yet were content not publicly to use, that great liberty of faith into which God had led them. It is blessed to have faith. It is yet more blessed to have that faith “before God”--when using the freedom it gives might perplex another!

Verse 23:

But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Of course the word “damned” (for “condemned”) of the King James Version, is not the meaning here. But what is meant is the state of conscious condemnation into which one falls who goes beyond his faith in the exercise of his liberty. For he who acts thus enters the realm of self-will, the lawlessness (anomia) which God declares is sin (1 John 3:4).

The apostle's definition of sin here as “what is not of faith” is most searching. It will drive us to our knees. It reaches everything in our lives concerning which our conscience is not at rest, in which we do not have faith to proceed, in which we cannot walk with God.



[end quoting Newell; color, italics, parentheses, and brackets original; underline mine]





I'll deal with some other points later, God-willing, but, from what I see, I'm just accepting the simple doctrine James is teaching, but you seem to be wanting to turn it into complicated gobbledygook as a smokescreen for your real belief in a misunderstanding of "faith alone" lol
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Many "contexts" are misunderstood by many, I'll just say that much... = )
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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romans113336 said:
The entire point is "add works to your faith", there's no cryptic "real" and 'false "faith reference. Just as there is no" real" and "false" body (representing faith), only an incomplete body (without its spirit), and a complete body (with its spirit).
Simple.
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Says/claims he has faith, but he has no works demonstrates a dead faith. James even asks the question, can that faith save him? The answer to that rhetorical question is no. Yet James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple.

In James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

No, Abraham was justified.
See how easy that is?
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In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. See how easy that is?

I just say what James says.
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Not exactly.

Then I see this also applies to Christians (Ro 2:6-16 ; 14:23).
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Do you teach salvation by works? :unsure:
 
M

montana123

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#54
To have faith you must have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

You cannot believe something contrary to that, and have faith.

The Bible says charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and hope.

And faith works by love.

John said if any person does not care about the needs of people then the love of God does not dwell in them.

So do not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.

Love is only valid in a person's life it is done in action.

You cannot say I love you, be saved, how are you doing, and it is valid as love if you do not help people with their needs.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he can remove mountains but if he did not have faith then he is nothing.

And said if any person teaches godliness is gain from such withdraw yourselves having food and clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and the needy, and that is what it is all about loving people for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul said if people heap money for their wants then they have erred from the faith.

Because we have to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom, that He loves people, and want their needs to be met.

God loves people not blessing the saints with their wants, and said He only provides for our needs.

James said if a person does not care about the needs of people then their faith is dead because they lack love for without love your faith is not valid for you do not have the right perspective.

Which he said a person is justified by works and faith alone.

Which he said it plainly that we are not justified by faith alone but by works which are works of love which is the only way love can be valid.

That is why James said I will show you my faith by my works for love can only be done in action for faith to be valid, and it is the only way to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

Paul and John say the same thing but people argue over the two.

We are saved by faith, and not works, when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.

But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to have faith apply in our life.

But there are millions of people claiming Christ that say we are saved by faith alone that go by their wants which is not love then it is not faith.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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montana123 said:
To have faith you must have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

You cannot believe something contrary to that, and have faith.

The Bible says charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and hope.

And faith works by love.

John said if any person does not care about the needs of people then the love of God does not dwell in them.

So do not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.

Love is only valid in a person's life it is done in action.

You cannot say I love you, be saved, how are you doing, and it is valid as love if you do not help people with their needs.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he can remove mountains but if he did not have faith then he is nothing.

And said if any person teaches godliness is gain from such withdraw yourselves having food and clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and the needy, and that is what it is all about loving people for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul said if people heap money for their wants then they have erred from the faith.

Because we have to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom, that He loves people, and want their needs to be met.

God loves people not blessing the saints with their wants, and said He only provides for our needs.

James said if a person does not care about the needs of people then their faith is dead because they lack love for without love your faith is not valid for you do not have the right perspective.

Which he said a person is justified by works and faith alone.

Which he said it plainly that we are not justified by faith alone but by works which are works of love which is the only way love can be valid.

That is why James said I will show you my faith by my works for love can only be done in action for faith to be valid, and it is the only way to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

Paul and John say the same thing but people argue over the two.

We are saved by faith, and not works, when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.

But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to have faith apply in our life.

But there are millions of people claiming Christ that say we are saved by faith alone that go by their wants which is not love then it is not faith.
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Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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#56
romans113336 said:
The precise nature of their faith is not relevant (as noted, Jesus never said that demons could be saved by faith); James just uses them as an example proving his main point : "I need you guys to add good works to your faith. Do you want to be like a demon who believes [the Greek for 'faith' is used] but doesn't do good? Of course not! So add good deeds to your faith."
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Disagree

James used them as an example to show a truth. You believe there is one god. Good for you. The demons also believe in that.

The people of James CLAIMED to have faith.. James never said they actually had faith. He was attacking a licentious gospel.
 
Evmur

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#57
romans113336 said:
When he mentions how devils "believe in one God--and shudder", and how their belief doesn't save them:

a) Christ wasn't sent to save demons, so there is no amount of "belief" they could have that could result in salvation, so we know it's not a perfect example (not to be read as you would ostensibly be reading it), and

b) James's point is very obviously that demons will not act righteous based on their belief, therefore, again, if you think your believing WITHOUT COMMITTING TO BEARING FRUIT WITH REPENTANCE is going to save you, think again, because such a faith is not what God is looking for, stop being deceived or misunderstanding the doctrine of "saved by grace through faith apart from works of the law", and understand that good is required of you after you believe, and that good is the walking out of your faith, the completion of it.

If you reject this obvious, natural, straightforward, interpretation, you have no use for so many other plainly stated doctrines throughout Scripture.
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what you seem to mean is God is a 2nd hand car salesman. He tells you salvation is a free gift .... but then you find out [at disciple class] you have to pay for it ... pay alot.

An extraordinary thing happened to me years ago.

A tiny bird had flown into a large glass conservatory where I was working, when I walked in he flew to the other end and pressed against the window, it was like he could see freedom but somehow was prevented from being free.

I prayed "oh Father let this little thing trust me so that I can take him out and set him free" ... you know what wild birds are like.

I walked slowly towards him coo cooing and talking softly to him and AMAZINGLY he didn't panic and start flying all over the place. I reached out both hands toward him and again amazingly he hopped on. It was just as if he knew I only wanted to help him. I took him slowly to the door and just opened my hands and lifted him into the air and away he went, mounting up on wings of joy.

And God said to me "That is what I will do for My people" That's God's way, He has set us FREE in Christ .... we are never going to fly so high or so far away as to be out of His sight. But free does mean free. So act like folks who have been rescued and set free.
 
J

John146

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Everlasting-Grace said:
Disagree

James used them as an example to show a truth. You believe there is one god. Good for you. The demons also believe in that.

The people of James CLAIMED to have faith.. James never said they actually had faith. He was attacking a licentious gospel.
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James was not answering the question, "Will works follow faith?" James was answering the questions, "Can faith save him?" Can faith save him without works?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul would unwavering say, yes! Faith saves a man without any works attached whatsoever. Works neither saves a man, neither proves one has salvation.

Paul and James are talking about two different things to two different audiences. Until that is realized, people will go on trying to mesh the two by cutting off the square edges and jamming it into the hole.
 
J

John146

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mailmandan said:
Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
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I'm righteous because Christ is righteous. No amount of works can show or prove that I am righteous. I am a filthy sinner saved by grace. I'm in Christ, the righteous One. I sin daily. The only way I have any hope is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ!
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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John146 said:
James was not answering the question, "Will works follow faith?" James was answering the questions, "Can faith save him?" Can faith save him without works?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul would unwavering say, yes! Faith saves a man without any works attached whatsoever. Works neither saves a man, neither proves one has salvation.

Paul and James are talking about two different things to two different audiences. Until that is realized, people will go on trying to mesh the two by cutting off the square edges and jamming it into the hole.
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no

He answered the question can THAT claimed faith save him.

And paul would say no, because they did not have true saving faith, it was dead. Lifeless, no faith at all
 
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