Works Complete Faith?

romans113336 · Sep 28, 2023

In the content below, isn't the "faith" referred to not with reference to "the finished work of Christ"--isn't "faith", here, something more akin to a Holy Spirit-granted conviction of what is right or wrong? Doesn't it describe instances of how we "serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of the letter"? Isn't it a warning that if we choose to ignore those convictions, we will not be "justified" but "condemned" (the two being adjudications the Judge may make about one's life)?

If so, then James and Paul are saying the same thing: as Christians, we will live (be justified by the righteousness of serving in the newness of the Spirit, and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life Ro 2:6-16) if we walk after the Spirit, but will die (be condemned for unrighteousness, and, ultimately, perish) if we walk after the flesh?

Romans 14
5Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 2
14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab, the prostitute, not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Dino246 · Sep 29, 2023

romans113336 said:

What you describe is discernment. It is the operation of the Holy Spirit through our conscience. Faith is the certainty of things we don’t see. Both Paul and James describe acting out of (or from, or consistently with) the faith in the finished work of Christ that we (claim to) hold.

studentoftheword · Sep 29, 2023

Thread Title

Works Complete Faith?

NO --the right Faith -----God's Faith --which come to us by hearing His Word ---Propels us to act -----

Read the Good Samaritan -----there is both dead Faith and True Faith shown in this Parable -----

True Faith in us drives us to act for God's Glory ----

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

Dino246 said:

Even if that were granted (I don't), you are saying Christians who sin lose their faith and are justly condemned lol

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Did the Corinthians have "true faith"? If so, how does your view explain their sinfulness?

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

James never mentions a "true" or a "false" body, only a "complete" or "incomplete" body when making an illustration of faith. There is no "true" or "false" faith James refers to, only complete and incomplete.

Your issue with seeing this obvious fact is your traditional view of Scripture, where "saved by faith not works" is the rule, so that pre-commitment to error makes you reject what is plain throughout Scripture.

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

romans113336 said:

When he mentions how devils "believe in one God--and shudder", and how their belief doesn't save them:

a) Christ wasn't sent to save demons, so there is no amount of "belief" they could have that could result in salvation, so we know it's not a perfect example (not to be read as you would ostensibly be reading it), and

b) James's point is very obviously that demons will not act righteous based on their belief, therefore, again, if you think your believing WITHOUT COMMITTING TO BEARING FRUIT WITH REPENTANCE is going to save you, think again, because such a faith is not what God is looking for, stop being deceived or misunderstanding the doctrine of "saved by grace through faith apart from works of the law", and understand that good is required of you after you believe, and that good is the walking out of your faith, the completion of it.

If you reject this obvious, natural, straightforward, interpretation, you have no use for so many other plainly stated doctrines throughout Scripture.

Blade · Sep 29, 2023

What your saying seems to be relying on us not what He already finished. I am in right standing with God aka righteousness because I believe in Yeshua/Jesus sinning or not (no talk talking freely never repenting sinning)

The faith I see talked about on the forums I'm on only few seem to understand it. Abraham believed God and it was counted, credited to him as righteousness. He never hopped some day it might come true. He believed he knew as if it was done already. Just like the soldier that told Christ you just speak the word. The soldier never needed to hear or see but knew if Christ said it it would be done already.

Faith is the substance of things or as the Amp says "Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]." So that "work" is knowing what God said already happened.

So this "and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life" not what Christ said. We are not going to be repaid. That free gift comes only by believing in Him. That if He said it its done. There is no "work" needed to be done to be saved. After He found us then what HE started He will not maybe not might but will finish it. The "work" that happens just come from within us. We just want to do good things aka works. Its not to gain anything its just in us we want to do those things. Our "righteousness" comes only by us believing in Jesus. Its what He did not what we do. No man will ever glory in His sight.

You talked about demons no offense you don't understand what you speak. "James's point is very obviously that demons will not act righteous based on their belief,". There is nothing in James that says this or hints at this. Salvation is only for man even the angels do not understand this salvation. What James was saying had nothing to do with demons. You believe God is one? Great even demons believe that yet it scars them. It was about faith and no works or faith with works. Fallen angels and demons.. nothing to talk about. They know what is coming as they said to Christ and lied "have you come to torment us before out time". Rev talks about what happens to Satan and all that follow him. Its done. Salvation was only for man. Why? We were born into sin its all we know. Were has fallen angels ooh the know God seen Him on this throne and glory and they freely walk away from that.

All we know seen is sin darkness. We have never truly seen Satan or God. Its like were in the middle. Its why God rains on the just and unjust. Its why He is right now doing what we won't. Still telling them He die so they might have life.

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

If what you assert were true, Paul could never have said "purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened" : they had received the benefit of the Cross, had been made saints (unleavened) "in the spirit", AND YET were not walking as they ought, but after they flesh, which ends in death, not life (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13), which was why Paul warned them, specifically in response to their sinful behaviors, that the unrighteous will not inherit Gods Kingdom (1 Co 6).

studentoftheword · Sep 29, 2023

romans113336 said:

romans113336---it is obvious that you don't understand what Faith is ------there are 3 types of faith ----all faith comes from God ------James describes these 3 types of faith ------

there is intellectual faith that God gave to us at birth ---this faith relies on your 5 senses ------this faith is a non producing Faith -----why because you believe what you see ---feel ---taste --touch and smell ----you have faith in the chair you see to sit in will hold you when you sit in it ----you have faith in your Doctor to heal you with the Pill you take ----this faith won't save you ------

there is demonic Faith ----even the demons believed in Jesus and they can't be saved -----so this Faith is a non producing faith-----

there is God's Faith --Producing Faith ----given to us by hearing God's Word ------so you believe in what you don't see ----this Faith produces what the Word says ------

The word tells you how to be saved --so you put your Faith in what the Word says and by that Faith it compels you to act and do as the word says ------so this Faith produces what God's word says it will produce -----God's Word is alive and active -----

Faith always precedes Works ---

you should read this whole thing ----on what Faith is and isn't ---I am just posting this part

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation". e "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation".

"Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" , ).

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

I say
The woman with the Blood disease -----had the right producing faith in Jesus to heal her ------and this Right Faith propelled her into action to get to Jesus to be healed ------no one or nothing could stop her from her action of getting to Jesus to be healed -------she had strong Faith ----

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

Blade said:

What your saying seems to be relying on us not what He already finished. I am in right standing with God aka righteousness because I believe in Yeshua/Jesus sinning or not (no talk talking freely never repenting sinning)

The faith I see talked about on the forums I'm on only few seem to understand it. Abraham believed God and it was counted, credited to him as righteousness. He never hopped some day it might come true. He believed he knew as if it was done already. Just like the soldier that told Christ you just speak the word. The soldier never needed to hear or see but knew if Christ said it it would be done already.

Faith is the substance of things or as the Amp says "Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]." So that "work" is knowing what God said already happened.

So this "and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life" not what Christ said. We are not going to be repaid. That free gift comes only by believing in Him. That if He said it its done. There is no "work" needed to be done to be saved. After He found us then what HE started He will not maybe not might but will finish it. The "work" that happens just come from within us. We just want to do good things aka works. Its not to gain anything its just in us we want to do those things. Our "righteousness" comes only by us believing in Jesus. Its what He did not what we do. No man will ever glory in His sight.

You talked about demons no offense you don't understand what you speak. "James's point is very obviously that demons will not act righteous based on their belief,". There is nothing in James that says this or hints at this. Salvation is only for man even the angels do not understand this salvation. What James was saying had nothing to do with demons. You believe God is one? Great even demons believe that yet it scars them. It was about faith and no works or faith with works. Fallen angels and demons.. nothing to talk about. They know what is coming as they said to Christ and lied "have you come to torment us before out time". Rev talks about what happens to Satan and all that follow him. Its done. Salvation was only for man. Why? We were born into sin its all we know. Were has fallen angels ooh the know God seen Him on this throne and glory and they freely walk away from that.

All we know seen is sin darkness. We have never truly seen Satan or God. Its like were in the middle. Its why God rains on the just and unjust. Its why He is right now doing what we won't. Still telling them He die so they might have life.

If you take "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ" IN A VACUUM, you seem to have a point, but, taken in context, what we see is that HOLINESS is the basis for eternal life, and because righteousness is a gift, then eternal life (knowing God Jn 17:3) is turned into a gift... but the same epistle goes on to warn "if you live after the flesh you will die," which doctrine you have no interest in.

So, as I've said, you could have something spiritually (ie, knowledge of God /eternal life, and, yet fail to walk after that reality--"purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened"--and so, as it warns us about Esau forfeit your birthright through your sin).

Read Romans 2 on being "repaid eternal life. I gave the scripture

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

romans113336---it is obvious that you don't understand what Faith is ------there are 3 types of faith ----all faith comes from God ------James describes these 3 types of faith ------

there is intellectual faith that God gave to us at birth ---this faith relies on your 5 senses ------this faith is a non producing Faith -----why because you believe what you see ---feel ---taste --touch and smell ----you have faith in the chair you see to sit in will hold you when you sit in it ----you have faith in your Doctor to heal you with the Pill you take ----this faith won't save you ------

there is demonic Faith ----even the demons believed in Jesus and they can't be saved -----so this Faith is a non producing faith-----

there is God's Faith --Producing Faith ----given to us by hearing God's Word ------so you believe in what you don't see ----this Faith produces what the Word says ------

The word tells you how to be saved --so you put your Faith in what the Word says and by that Faith it compels you to act and do as the word says ------so this Faith produces what God's word says it will produce -----God's Word is alive and active -----

Faith always precedes Works ---

View attachment 256225

you should read this whole thing ----on what Faith is and isn't ---I am just posting this part

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation". e "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation".

"Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" , ).

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

I say
The woman with the Blood disease -----had the right producing faith in Jesus to heal her ------and this Right Faith propelled her into action to get to Jesus to be healed ------no one or nothing could stop her from her action of getting to Jesus to be healed -------she had strong Faith ----

Already addressed this argument. Thanks.

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

NOPE

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/works-complete-faith.212639/#post-5159886

studentoftheword · Sep 29, 2023

romans113336 said:

I don't think so personally -----but that is my view --

studentoftheword said:
Faith always precedes Works

romans113336 said:

Well that is just your wrong opinion ---

---your reversing God's order------

https://www.todayintheword.org/issu... Christian life faith,His blood on our behalf.

We do not add our actions to faith in order to be saved. Faith expresses itself in action. For this reason, James speaks of action as the evidence of a faith that already exists. James affirms what Paul teaches by contrasting true faith with false or “dead” faith. Works or actions are the fruit of a faith that saves, not the basis for our salvation. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ apart from any effort of our own. Yet those who are saved in this way are enabled to put their faith into practice by the transforming work of Christ and the power of His Spirit.

When considering the relationship between faith and works, the order is critical. In the Christian life faith always precedes works. If we reverse the order, the relationship between the two becomes toxic.

Our acts of obedience are grounded in the knowledge that Jesus earned our righteous standing by His own obedience, and He paid the penalty for our sins by shedding His blood on our behalf. This is the only work sufficient enough to reconcile us to God (Heb. 9:14; 1 Peter 3:18).

i say -----I know ---I know ---you already addressed this --------thank you

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Already addressed this :

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/works-complete-faith.212639/#post-5159816

studentoftheword said:

Correction : When it says, "the faith of Jesus Christ", and "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit, that Greek word also means "faithfulness"--clearly, in both cases, the correct interpretation is "faithfulness" not "faith".

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Well, yes, faith must precede our actions--that was my argument--BUT I thought, because of the context of our conversation, you were saying "if anyone has true faith, they will inevitably have works".

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Correct, in one sense.
Our salvation by grace through faith is compared to the Jews' salvation from slavery in Egypt (1 Co 10)--and Paul teaches that just as they forfeited the Promise made (possessing Canaan), and fell under God's wrath, despite having been "saved", so also the same can happened to us if we do not walk after the Spirit of Grace, serving in newness of Spirit.

studentoftheword said:

You're free to give an answer to the post where I've disproven this obvious error whenever you please.

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

studentoftheword said:

When did I ever deny this sort of talk?

I agree with it, but, since I am determined to believe ALL of Scripture, not merely little snippets of it, I believe additional doctrines, which I have shared.

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

Blade said:

If your understanding were the ENTIRE truth of Scripture, and not merely part of it (as it is), Christians could never be said to be "condemned" for "sin" (defined as not serving in newness of Spirit--ie, doing something they doubted, instead of what the believed) in Ro 14:5, 23.

Blade said:

Oops, you forgot the phrase, and doctrine, "footsteps of faith of Abraham"--those who do not follow their faith with footsteps of faith their faith is dead, and they can resurrect it by adding works ("you have a name that you are alive but you are dead"--ie, add works to your faith--etc).

romans113336 · Sep 29, 2023

Blade said:

John says the command of God is "believe on the name of God's Son AND love one another" :
a) "love one another" is one with, and, yet, separate from, "believe on the name of God's Son"
b) "faith, which works by love", and "love is the fulfillment of the Law", mean that walking in faith is walking in the convictions created by love, and only those who walk by faith/serve in newness of the spirit can "fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law".

We have choices--either we walk after the spirit, whereby we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, which will result in life (for the righteousness), or else we walk after the flesh, resulting in death (for unrighteousness) according to Paul in Ro 8:12,13.

I take what he says seriously, I don't brush it off.

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