The misunderstood Book of James & parsing the covenants/dispensations.

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#81
Can you show me another instance anywhere in scripture where the term "twelve tribes" is a reference to Christians? Or anyone else for that matter, other than the nation of Israel as a whole?
Paul's epistle to the Hebrews is in fact written to "the twelve tribes" without stating it in so many words. "To the Hebrews" automatically says "to Hebrew Christians" and all Hebrew Christians would be within the twelve tribes. Peter calls the Hebrew Christians scattered throughout the Roman empire "sojourners" or "strangers", but his letter is also address to Hebrew Christians. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE EPISTLE ADDRESSED TO ANYONE OTHER THAN CHRISTIANS. Keep in mind that "the nation of Israel" had already rejected Christ, and Paul had already turned away from unsaved Jews.

For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:27,28)

Do you seriously think that James would pursue unsaved Jews, knowing that both Paul and James were being guided by the Holy Spirit? Do you seriously think that a "servant of the Lord Jesus Christ" would be addressing those who had already rejected Jesus Christ? How absurd do you want to get?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,267
432
83
#82
Did you notice "MY BRETHREN"? Do Christians call unbelievers "my brethren"? You have cooked up a fanciful interpretation.
Typical inaccurate (condescending) Nehemiah6 reply

The word Brethren has 333 mentions in the OT. Not once is it a reference to a Christian. THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS, YET!

Every time Jesus mentions brethren He's referring to Jews. While Jesus is alive: THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS!

James is a Jewish epistle addressed/written to the 12 Tribes/circumcision/Jews!

James 5:10 Brethren:

James is a Jewish epistle, addressed/written to the 12 Tribes/circumcision/Jews!

James is a Jew sent to preach/share Christ with saved & unsaved Jews/circumcision. (Gal (2:9). Ja 5:10 brethren statement is addressing all JEWS! JEWS is who the epistle is written to!
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,272
113
#83
Typical inaccurate (condescending) Nehemiah6 reply

The word Brethren has 333 mentions in the OT. Not once is it a reference to a Christian. THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS, YET!

Every time Jesus mentions brethren He's referring to Jews. While Jesus is alive: THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS!

James is a Jewish epistle addressed/written to the 12 Tribes/circumcision/Jews!

James 5:10 Brethren:

James is a Jewish epistle, addressed/written to the 12 Tribes/circumcision/Jews!

James is a Jew sent to preach/share Christ with saved & unsaved Jews/circumcision. (Gal (2:9). Ja 5:10 brethren statement is addressing all JEWS! JEWS is who the epistle is written to!
My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism. (James 2:1)

the first to believe in Christ were Jews. James is believed to be the earliest epistle written, thus written to the believing of Isreal.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,267
432
83
#84
My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism. (James 2:1)

the first to believe in Christ were Jews. James is believed to be the earliest epistle written, thus written to the believing of Isreal.

I disagree, James is a Jew sent to preach/share Christ with saved & unsaved Jews/THE CIRCUMCISION (Gal 2:9).

James is a Jewish epistle, addressed/written to the 12 Tribes/THE CIRCUMCISION/Jews which were scattered abroad.

Ja 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(MY NOTE: The TWEVLE TRIBES [scattered abroad] & no mention of believing or unbelieving! Also see Jewish diaspora history below)

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
(MY NOTE: These God believing Mosaic law adherent/devout men, from EVERY nation under heaven. They were at the Pentecost feast because Mosaic law required every male 20 yr & older to attend & NONE of them were Christians!)

James is written to JEWS ONLY. Main epistle audience is non believing Mosaic law adherents. Israelis' living outside Jerusalem that didn't see & live in Israel during Jesus walk.

A little Jewish diaspora history:

Babylonian Captivity, also called Babylonian Exile, the forced detention of Jews in Babylonia following the latter’s conquest of the kingdom of Judah in 598/7 and 587/6 BCE. The captivity formally ended in 538 BCE, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. Source Britannica

Once freed from Babylonian Captivity, most Jews didn't return to live in Israel.

James is a Jewish epistle, written to the 12 Tribes/JEWS scattered abroad. Not because I say so! Because God breathed scripture say's so (James 1:1).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#85
James is a Jewish epistle, written to the 12 Tribes/JEWS scattered abroad. Not because I say so! Because God breathed scripture say's so (James 1:1).
Correct brother, and to make it to any other audience violates every other usage of the term "twelve tribes" throughout scripture. I guess some people have no problem with this.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#86
I don't think that anyone is denying that James' epistle was written to a Jewish audience... the usage of "12 tribes" seems to make that clear. The thing is that it was to Jewish believers in Christ... and that is made clear to the reader by how the rest of the epistle reads.

If people don't want to accept that and believe that it's not relevant to Christians, both then and now, is fine... strange to me, but fine.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#87
For a unique, and extremely thorough exposition of the book of James, by a Greek grammarian, may I suggest a book entitled, “Faith, Hope, and Love,” by Spiros Zodhiates.
Based on what I know of his commentary on I Corinthians, Zohiates is not someone whose commentaries I would recommend it.

A review on Amazon from Robert Graves caused me to think that a Zhodiates commentary on I Corinthians wasn't worth my time. Here is a quote:


"
1. 1 Cor 12:28 refers to naturally learning foreign languages (pp. 20-21)
2. When Paul uses the Greek word for "tongues" in the singular, it designates false Corinthian tongues, when in the plural, it is genuine tongues as occurred at Pentecost (21-22, 58, 189-91)
3. The term "Holy Spirit" does not occur in 1 Cor 14; therefore, the tongues there are carnal (22-23, 45)
4. 1 Cor 14:18, when Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians, it means he spoke more foreign languages naturally than they did (27)
5. If Paul could speak angelic tongues, it was because he had heard them in the third heaven (27)
6. Paul understood genuine tongues to be used for sharing the gospel, not speaking to God (27-28)
7. Tongues are insignificant since, of the gospels, only Mark mentions them (34)
8. No interpretation is needed if tongues are from God [as in Acts] (39)
9. Tongues are always for witnessing (41); preaching (43-44, 51, 55, 58)
10. Paul condemns tongues in 1 Cor 14 (42, 68, 110-11)
11. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is never given apart from apostolic instrumentality (44)
12. Acts and Corinthian tongues are different; the former are genuine, the latter false (51-2, 64)
13. Non-tongue-speakers have Paul's enlightened understanding (85-86)
14. Tongues (Corinthian style) are below the dignity of man and God (94, 183-84)
15. Tongues are false if no one can understand them [as a foreign language] (128)
16. The true gift of tongues occurred only three times that we know of (128)
17. 1 Corinthians cured the tongues problem since Paul does not mention it in 2 Corinthians (137)
18. The tongue-speaker wants to attract attention to himself (156-57)
19. Tongues are no good to unbelievers or new believers and practically useless to believers (160)
20. Paul accepts tongues and interpretation in Corinth only because it is the lesser of two evils; the other being tongues without interpretation (170)
21. Paul is more concerned with instilling love than eradicating tongues because he knew that love for others would lead to the eradication of tongues (171)
22. 1 Cor 12:10 tongues (i.e., a known foreign language, as in Acts) were not like 1 Cor 14 tongues (gibberish or babble) (174); the latter were "a spurious imitation of the historical instances in the Acts" (52) "

https://www.amazon.com/product-revi...r&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar

I almost feel embarrassed for him reading that.

Does he demonstrate any better understanding or reasoning ability with James?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#88
James was sent to the circumcision/Israel/Jews (Gal 2:9). He's writing to Israelites still adherent to Mosaic law. Temple worship, circumcision, required feast attendance, food & purity rituals etc.
James was a Mosaic law adherent/Judaizer = Someone that believed Jesus was Messiah & one must follow Mosaic law in order to be saved. James sent men to spy on Peter & Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles. (Gal 2:11-12).

The Bible says, 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.' If your wild speculation here is wrong, what are you doing?

The verse does not say that James wanted to know if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles. Paul blamed Peter for eating with Gentiles. It doesn't say that he blamed the men or James. Peter might have been afraid of their disapproval without their saying anything at all about his eating with Gentiles.

They also could have had a very practical issue of conscience, since the Lord had said that the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat, and whatever they bid them observe, that they were to observe and do. The Shammai Pharisees had come to power and had given 18 edicts about Gentiles that are lost to history. If one of those was not to eat with Gentiles, then Peter could have had an issue with that in Acts 10. But in Acts 11, those of the circumcision had confronted Peter about this, and after telling his vision, they had apparently accepted his explanation. Maybe Peter got self-conscious and withdrew without their saying anything. There is nothing in the verse that blames James or attributes the motives to him that you do.

In Acts 15, Peter also affirmed his belief of salvation by grace. What they agreed on was to urge Gentiles to refrain from some things... things that one might derive with a bit of theological reasoning that Gentiles were required to refrain from based on the Torah. God gave mankind meat to eat but not blood. Leviticus 18 indicates Gentiles were driven out of the land for certain sexual sins, for example.

In Galatians, Paul did not accuse James or Peter of having a different gospel. He wrote if any man preached another gospel, let him be accursed. Do you think that he was cursing James or the apostles?

Acts 22, James and the elders indicated that they felt it was inappropriate to teach Jews not to circumcise their children or not to live according to Jewish customs. Paul went along with the temple ritual they asked him to do to demonstrate that he wasn't teaching these things. He could have been waiting a long time to turn his own hair in in the temple also. He has an Israelite after all. And after he got in the temple, he was later mistaken for an Egyptian. If Egyptians had a clean-shaven look still, maybe that was the reason.

You need to show some restraint with these conspiracy theories of yours that you do not slander others.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,656
568
113
#89
Correct brother, and to make it to any other audience violates every other usage of the term "twelve tribes" throughout scripture. I guess some people have no problem with this.
The Bible makes known of two Israels and their respective tribes: the earthly Israel and the heavenly (spiritual) Israel. The heavenly Israel consists of all who will ever become saved - the true Christians- they alone are the true Israelites. Therefore, the word "scattered" pertains to the scattering of those chosen throughout time: those who will be the citizens of the heavenly Israel - who God makes into the heavenly Israel and its tribes.

[Rev 5:6,9- 10 KJV]
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[Eze 34:5-7, 11-17 KJV]
5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; ...
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
17 And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

[Mat 26:31 KJV]
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

[Heb 12:22-23 KJV]
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[Luk 12:32 KJV]
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[Rev 21:10 - 12 KJV]
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

So, in considering all of the above verses closely, and in viewing the following verses closely, we see not only who the Book of James was written to, but also who the whole Bible was written to, they, being those who must become saved, and they who can never become saved. The Book of James, as was the whole Bible, was written by God alone. Being written by God, it transcends all earthly groupings of people except for those two.

[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#90
James is a Jew sent to preach/share Christ with saved & unsaved Jews/circumcision. (Gal (2:9). Ja 5:10 brethren statement is addressing all JEWS! JEWS is who the epistle is written to!
Not at all. James is addressed to HEBREW CHRISTIANS. "Jews" is used as a term for unbelieving Jews by the apostles. And faith in Christ was assumed by James, who was a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now note carefully if you do not want more condescension! James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. (James 1:1-3) Does God "try" or test the faith of unbelievers, who have no faith in Christ to begin with?

But here is the passage which settles this. Only those who have faith in Christ are born again believers. And James is addressing born again Hebrew Christians here: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us ["borned" us] with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:17,18)

The New Birth is "from above", and Peter tells us plainly that the Gospel (the Word of Truth) is the "seed" of the New Birth. So James and Peter are on the same page -- both addressing Hebrew Christians: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)

It is laughable to think these are words addressed to unbelievers!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#91
The Jews were James’ brethren according to the flesh. Paul often called unsaved Jews his brethren. Next…
Except that the epistle is not "according to the flesh" but "according to the Spirit". The Spirit makes a clear distinction between the saved and the unsaved. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (2 Cor :6:14,15)
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#92
How any self proclaimed Christian posits that the book of James is not for believers, EVEN THOUGH it was written to believers, makes me wonder what other scripture they believe can be avoided at all costs.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#93
Correct brother, and to make it to any other audience violates every other usage of the term "twelve tribes" throughout scripture. I guess some people have no problem with this.
If you do not see James as written to Jewish believers, there must be a reason your eyes are blinded.

smh
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,476
690
113
#94
Based on what I know of his commentary on I Corinthians, Zohiates is not someone whose commentaries I would recommend it.

A review on Amazon from Robert Graves caused me to think that a Zhodiates commentary on I Corinthians wasn't worth my time. Here is a quote:


"
1. 1 Cor 12:28 refers to naturally learning foreign languages (pp. 20-21)
2. When Paul uses the Greek word for "tongues" in the singular, it designates false Corinthian tongues, when in the plural, it is genuine tongues as occurred at Pentecost (21-22, 58, 189-91)
3. The term "Holy Spirit" does not occur in 1 Cor 14; therefore, the tongues there are carnal (22-23, 45)
4. 1 Cor 14:18, when Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians, it means he spoke more foreign languages naturally than they did (27)
5. If Paul could speak angelic tongues, it was because he had heard them in the third heaven (27)
6. Paul understood genuine tongues to be used for sharing the gospel, not speaking to God (27-28)
7. Tongues are insignificant since, of the gospels, only Mark mentions them (34)
8. No interpretation is needed if tongues are from God [as in Acts] (39)
9. Tongues are always for witnessing (41); preaching (43-44, 51, 55, 58)
10. Paul condemns tongues in 1 Cor 14 (42, 68, 110-11)
11. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is never given apart from apostolic instrumentality (44)
12. Acts and Corinthian tongues are different; the former are genuine, the latter false (51-2, 64)
13. Non-tongue-speakers have Paul's enlightened understanding (85-86)
14. Tongues (Corinthian style) are below the dignity of man and God (94, 183-84)
15. Tongues are false if no one can understand them [as a foreign language] (128)
16. The true gift of tongues occurred only three times that we know of (128)
17. 1 Corinthians cured the tongues problem since Paul does not mention it in 2 Corinthians (137)
18. The tongue-speaker wants to attract attention to himself (156-57)
19. Tongues are no good to unbelievers or new believers and practically useless to believers (160)
20. Paul accepts tongues and interpretation in Corinth only because it is the lesser of two evils; the other being tongues without interpretation (170)
21. Paul is more concerned with instilling love than eradicating tongues because he knew that love for others would lead to the eradication of tongues (171)
22. 1 Cor 12:10 tongues (i.e., a known foreign language, as in Acts) were not like 1 Cor 14 tongues (gibberish or babble) (174); the latter were "a spurious imitation of the historical instances in the Acts" (52) "

https://www.amazon.com/product-revi...r&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar

I almost feel embarrassed for him reading that.

Does he demonstrate any better understanding or reasoning ability with James?
I’ve only read this commentary, so I can’t compare it with any of his others. It may not be a scholarly approach, but it seems appropriate for everyday Christians.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#95
Justification is the same for Jewish believers and Gentile believers, so the book of James is profitable for Gentile believers in the Messiah.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#96
Not at all. James is addressed to HEBREW CHRISTIANS. "Jews" is used as a term for unbelieving Jews by the apostles. And faith in Christ was assumed by James, who was a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Where do the apostles exclude themselves from the term 'Jew'?

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The Jew who is circumcised in the heart does not cease to be a Jew.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Jew in question here is Peter.

There is also this:

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

Acts 16:20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

Acts 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

He was a Jewish believer, called a 'Jew' here.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#97
Except that the epistle is not "according to the flesh" but "according to the Spirit". The Spirit makes a clear distinction between the saved and the unsaved. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (2 Cor :6:14,15)
Does the following sound like the early church? The Christian’s who were laying down their lives for Christ?

James 4
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#98
If you do not see James as written to Jewish believers, there must be a reason your eyes are blinded.

smh
If you can post another scripture anywhere in the Bible where the term “twelve tribes“ is a reference to Christians, maybe I’ll change my mind.

I’ll wait.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#99
The letter could have been written by James the son of Joseph or James the son of Zebedee before there were many Gentile converts.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
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Where do the apostles exclude themselves from the term 'Jew'?
When they dissociate themselves from "the Jews' religion" (Gal 1:13,14). In John's Gospel he calls the feasts of Passover and Tabernacles "the Jews" feasts.