The misunderstood Book of James & parsing the covenants/dispensations.

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#61
The term "brethren" does not always mean Christian in the NT. Sometimes it simply means kinsmen. Notice in James 5:19-20, some who James calls "brethren" need to have their souls saved.
Does anyone seriously think this line is addressed to the unsaved Jews: My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience? James is speaking about faith in Christ and how that faith can produce patience. So if James starts out by addressing saved Hebrew Christians, then we must tale that as the foundation of this epistle. So let's not have any more talk about unsaved Jews (enemies of Christ and the Gospel) being addressed in this epistle.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,256
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#62
The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning: to live according to Mosaic laws customs. So, James wasn't a Mosaic law adherent?
It looks like you're trying to move the goalpost here, compared to your original statement:
James was a Mosaic law adherent/Judaizer = Someone that believed Jesus was Messiah & one must follow Mosaic law in order to be saved.
Surely he did not believe that keeping the law of Moses was a salvation requirement, and there's no definitive evidence that James continued to keep the law of Moses. He likely did, if he remained in Israel; for the sake of complying with the legitimate civil authority of Israel; but not for salvation purposes.
If the law adherent's that caused division in Gal 2:12 weren't sent by James. Why does scripture proclaim they came from James?
If James sent them, why not say that? They clearly had been with James- and maybe Paul didn't know where they were, just that they were with James. In James' own epistle there are people that "go out from us but are not of us", they heard him speak, and then went
out as false teachers to twist his message.
If Acts 15 wasn't a key inflection point. Why record the heated debate
It doesn't say there is a "heated" debate. it was probably more like a formal inquiry/deliberation- which makes sense when you hear something that is different from what you've hear before.
And somehow being dunked into water removes sin
I don't believe in baptismal regeneration either... Most people don't.
QUESTION: To those that claim ALL scripture is written to the NT body of Christ.
I doubt you will find anyone who actually believes that.
The book of Acts is a transition book, not to be used as a doctrinal book because things are changing throughout as God moves away from the Jew to the Gentile, from Peter to Paul, from Jerusalem to Antioch.
No.
There was a transition taking place from under the law, before the cross, and under grace, after the cross. See Acts 15 and Galatians. Paul would settle the dispute, especially for the Gentiles.
There was no transition taking place. The transition was complete at Pentecost- the only reason Jewish Christians were keeping the law, was because of the legitimate civil authority that remained in the fading Kingdom of Judea.
2. It is obvious that there are those in the audience that have not received the word and their souls were not saved. 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
The engrafted word continues to save your soul well after you are justified. Sanctification is part of Salvation; one does not exist without the other; you are continuously being saved your whole life, it's not a one-and-done "sweet, I'm saved now, so I can go do some crack, and it'll be OK cause I'm saved now." Either you are justified and being sanctified, or neither sanctified nor justified, you can't be one without the other.
5. James plainly states that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.
And he's right! You might think this contradicts Paul, but it doesn't!
6. James states in 5:9 that the Lord is standing ready to return as Judge. During the Church Age, Paul states that Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Both of those things are true, and in no way contradict one another.
The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things.
The only people the book of James is frustrating to, is hyper-dispensationalists; so in their frustration, they explained it out of
the New Testament.
When James is written (in the 40's) their was no NT body of Christ.
The body of Christ began when the Spirit of Christ was given at Pentecost.
Gentiles don't have any accepted/sanctioned relationship with God until the Council At Jerusalem, early 50's.
Objectively false. Why would you even say this?
Peter & other Jewish believers go to Cornelius house (Acts 10). Here gentiles are introduced to God the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44). The believing Jews present are ASTONISHED that gentiles received Christ's eternal life giving Holy Spirit. It's 14 YEARS later!
Okay, but this is still before the council of Jerusalem, so... they obviously do have an accepted/sanctioned relationship with God before the council of Jerusalem.
Where Jews drag Paul outside & begin to BEAT him to DEATH. For allowing a gentile into the Temple Acts 22:20-21. This notion/YOUR CLAIM that gentiles were running freely around the Church at Jerusalem is FAR FETCHED! The Church/Assembly/Congregation at Jerusalem was ALL Jewish believers & therefore NOT the NT (Jew & Gentile) Body of Christ!
Dude, Christians never controlled the Temple... This is not Christians beating up Paul... this is unbelieving Jews.
: Peter tells Cornelius/a gentile. IT'S AGAINST MOSAIC LAW for a Jew to keep company with a gentile.
No, no, no: He said, it's "unlawful"- he did NOT say it was against the Law of Moses.
(NOTE: By ONE SPIRIT/HOLY SPIRIT. ALL believers (Jew/Gentile) are baptized into ONE BODY/JESUS. Only Christ baptizes with/in the Holy Spirit. NO H2O used!)
Yeah... you're use the water, not him.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,267
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#63
Not one word in this post about "the misunderstood book of James"!

As a matter of fact James writes as a Hebrew Christian to other Hebrew Christians. But that does not automatically exclude Gentile Christians. There is nothing to misunderstand in that book. James is all about practical Christianity.
70 nations (see Gen 10) God chose ONE > Israel. He cuts a covenant at Sinai with Israel (not all nations. Ex 19). ALL the PEOPLE (Israel only) say, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do (Ex 19:8) & a covenant is established. The other 69 nations are ALL gentiles & have NO part in this agreement!

Mosaic Law was given exclusively to the House of Jacob/Nation of Israel. (Ex 19, Lev 26:46, Rom 9:4)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacobs name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob's 12 sons. Each receives a land portion (except Levi they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48:2) And divides it between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(MY NOTE: ALL scripture is God the Holy Spirit inspired!)

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
QUESTION: Who does the Holy Spirit say is James writing to? The TWELVE TRIBES > ISRAEL ONLY > NOT GENTILES!

The Holy Spirit says James is writing to the twelve tribes/Israel. Yet, Nehemiah6 keeps claiming, NO its written to gentiles too.

Covenant mixing of Israel & the NT Body of Christ Church (James isn't written to) is clearly misunderstood.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#64
From start to finish, all throughout the bible, when the term "twelve tribes" is used, it is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out group from that nation.

Genesis 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

1 Kings 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

Ezekiel 47:13 Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

And the New Testament is no different...

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

To make James 1:1 to mean Christians out of the twelve tribes, contradicts every other usage in scripture. There are many who are willing to do this, not me. There are no "twelve tribes" within the body of Christ.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,150
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#65
Mankind, whether Jew or Gentile, fell into sin because Adam abrogated himself of the word of God. That is, he 'unyoked' himself from God, or 'set himself free of God's word and thus from God. Jesus directs us, "take my yoke upon you..." which is essentially encouraging us to return to Him and come so close as to be 'hitched back up' again to Him.

The OT law offered a burdensome yoke that was so heavy no one could sufficiently carry it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#66
Does anyone seriously think this line is addressed to the unsaved Jews: My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience? James is speaking about faith in Christ and how that faith can produce patience. So if James starts out by addressing saved Hebrew Christians, then we must tale that as the foundation of this epistle. So let's not have any more talk about unsaved Jews (enemies of Christ and the Gospel) being addressed in this epistle.
The Jews always had faith. It is obvious that at least part of the audience have not received the word and their souls were not saved.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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#67
Moreover, is this doctrine for the body of Christ? Do the prayers of the elders always save the sick (shall save the sick, not might, not maybe, shall)? Do the prayers of the elders have the power to forgive the sins of the sick?

James 5
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#68
Well James was written to Christians...Jewish Christians...and is a part of the NT

All the gobbledegook stating otherwise is misleading and people will have to answer for it one day

You simply see more and more why scripture states not many should be teachers

The Bible is not a take it or leave it or disagree with what you do not care to have to answer for. There must be some really important stuff in there for the continual attacks on that book with people saying Christians can ignore it

Ignore it at your own peril
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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#69
Well James was written to Christians...Jewish Christians...and is a part of the NT

All the gobbledegook stating otherwise is misleading and people will have to answer for it one day

You simply see more and more why scripture states not many should be teachers

The Bible is not a take it or leave it or disagree with what you do not care to have to answer for. There must be some really important stuff in there for the continual attacks on that book with people saying Christians can ignore it

Ignore it at your own peril
No one is claiming to ignore it. Question, if James is written to the body of Christ, to which of the twelve tribes do you belong?

James tells his audience: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Obviously, at least part of the audience had not received the word and their souls were not saved or James would not have stated this.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,656
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#70
The church were all Jews at the start paul Peter John Jesus James …..all were born and circumcised Jews who all heard the gospel and believed just like gentiles do
They were of the Chosen before they were of the Jews before they were of the Christians. That all were of the Chosen is the common thread that alone links all true Christians and not by earthly affiliations nor earthly wisdom nor personal choice, through which choosing, they ultimately became faithful, and thus, could not, not, be made into and remain true Christians.

[Eph 1:4-6 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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#71
They were of the Chosen before they were of the Jews before they were of the Christians. That all were of the Chosen is the common thread that alone links all true Christians and not by earthly affiliations nor earthly wisdom nor personal choice, through which choosing, they ultimately became faithful, and thus, could not, not, be made into and remain true Christians.

[Eph 1:4-6 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
The word "according" takes you back to verse 3 which you left out. That is what has been chosen us in him. It's the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. Notice it does not say he hath chosen us to be in him....Calvinists read it all wrong.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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#72
Can you find any other place in scripture where the term, "twelve tribes" is a reference to Jewish Christians? In fact, every other usage in scripture is a reference to the entire nation of Israel, all descendants from the twelve tribes of Israel.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The reference, John146, is I believe a reference to spiritual Israel, the Israel of God - the heavenly Israel- not the earthly Israel.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,656
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#73
The word "according" takes you back to verse 3 which you left out. That is what has been chosen us in him. It's the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. Notice it does not say he hath chosen us to be in him....Calvinists read it all wrong.
Sorry, I'm not following you - verse 4 does say "in him". The verses following it (to include verse 4), go on to inform as to what those spiritual blessings are:

[Eph 3-9 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#74
No one is claiming to ignore it. Question, if James is written to the body of Christ, to which of the twelve tribes do you belong?

James tells his audience: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Obviously, at least part of the audience had not received the word and their souls were not saved or James would not have stated this.
OK. Read the op again. Does not apply to Christians?

James was written to Jewish Christians. Seeing what is written in the NT by those spreading the gospel, it is safe to say they were
taught what it meant to follow Christ.

Just like today though, Christians need to be taught the same thing over and over and over. They just like being bottle fed.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#75
James was written to Jewish Christians.
Can you show me another instance anywhere in scripture where the term "twelve tribes" is a reference to Christians? Or anyone else for that matter, other than the nation of Israel as a whole?

All Christians have received the word and their souls are saved. James states that a brother can err from the truth, lose his soul, and must be converted once again. Is this Christian doctrine?

James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
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#76
Can you show me another instance anywhere in scripture where the term "twelve tribes" is a reference to Christians? Or anyone else for that matter, other than the nation of Israel as a whole?

All Christians have received the word and their souls are saved. James states that a brother can err from the truth, lose his soul, and must be converted once again. Is this Christian doctrine?

James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Can you show us any other book in the Bible that written to non-Christians?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#77
Can you show us any other book in the Bible that written to non-Christians?
Christians as defined as the church, the body of Christ...which did not begin until after the resurrection. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. All scripture is written for us to read, study, and understand how God has interacted with man throughout history. Not all scripture is written to us to obey.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
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#78
Christians as defined as the church, the body of Christ...which did not begin until after the resurrection. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. All scripture is written for us to read, study, and understand how God has interacted with man throughout history. Not all scripture is written to us to obey.
So, your answer is "No, I cannot show any other book of the Bible being written to non-Christians."
Thank you.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#80
So, your answer is "No, I cannot show any other book of the Bible being written to non-Christians."
Thank you.
Are sick people healed every time they are prayed over? In the time period of the tribulation, signs and wonders will be back in play among the Jews.

James 5:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.