The misunderstood Book of James & parsing the covenants/dispensations.

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#41
The error here is that it has always been grace. The law was given to show the offense and man's inability to live by it. This should have caused them to look for another way...the only WAY.
Instead, they did as many do today...try to relate to God on the basis of the law and not grace.
Deuteronomy 6:
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#42
Grace in what? Works of righteousness? If a Jew under the law did not obey the law, he died in his sin. If a Jew under the law obeyed the law, he lived.

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
a Jew had atonement of sin through animal sacrifice and the sprinkling of animal blood. Which was temporary atonement. Christs blood is the once and for all atonement of sin. According to Hebrews when the writer compares the old covenant to new covenant
 

Cameron143

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#43
Grace in what? Works of righteousness? If a Jew under the law did not obey the law, he died in his sin. If a Jew under the law obeyed the law, he lived.

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
No Jew ever kept the law except Jesus. And everyone of them died, save 2. So trying to keep the law proved fatal. The only ones not subject to the 2nd death are those under grace. The law leads to death. Grace leads to life.
 

John146

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#44
a Jew had atonement of sin through animal sacrifice and the sprinkling of animal blood. Which was temporary atonement. Christs blood is the once and for all atonement of sin. According to Hebrews when the writer compares the old covenant to new covenant
Exactly!
 

Cameron143

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#45
Deuteronomy 6:
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
How many kept all the commandments?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#46
No Jew ever kept the law except Jesus. And everyone of them died, save 2. So trying to keep the law proved fatal. The only ones not subject to the 2nd death are those under grace. The law leads to death. Grace leads to life.
Exactly why the sacrificial system was put in place. It temporarily brought forgiveness of sin. A Jew could live blameless, not sinless, under the law. Here's an example:

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
 

John146

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#47
How many kept all the commandments?
Examples...

Joshua 22
1 Then Joshua called the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh,
2 And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:
 

Cameron143

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#48
Exactly why the sacrificial system was put in place. It temporarily brought forgiveness of sin. A Jew could live blameless, not sinless, under the law. Here's an example:

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
The sacrificial system is GRACE.
 

John146

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#49
How many kept all the commandments?
Leviticus 19
21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
 

Cameron143

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#55
No one obeyed the law? No one made sacrifices for sin? Did God lie?
First question...no one did ALL that God commanded. If I'm wrong, please tell me of the other person beside Jesus. Second question...the fact that everyone made sacrifices is testimony to everyone's sin. The fact that sacrifices continued is testimony that sin was also ongoing. The fact that they didn't fall over dead is evidence of grace. Question three...I assume this is rhetorical.
 

John146

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#56
First question...no one did ALL that God commanded. If I'm wrong, please tell me of the other person beside Jesus. Second question...the fact that everyone made sacrifices is testimony to everyone's sin. The fact that sacrifices continued is testimony that sin was also ongoing. The fact that they didn't fall over dead is evidence of grace. Question three...I assume this is rhetorical.
No one was sinless under the law, but blameless. When a Jew transgressed the law, they had to make an atonement sacrifice for their sin. If they did, their sin was forgiven.
 

Cameron143

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#57
No one was sinless under the law, but blameless. When a Jew transgressed the law, they had to make an atonement sacrifice for their sin. If they did, their sin was forgiven.
Forgiveness is also GRACE. They deserved death. Those sins were later placed on Jesus demonstrating that the law brings death but Jesus brings life.
A consideration of the law absent a consideration of Christ can only lead to death. It is also the reason that the Jews as a whole rejected Christ...they thought they had no need of Him.
 

John146

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#58
Did you notice "MY BRETHREN"? Do Christians call unbelievers "my brethren"? You have cooked up a fanciful interpretation.
The term "brethren" does not always mean Christian in the NT. Sometimes it simply means kinsmen. Notice in James 5:19-20, some who James calls "brethren" need to have their souls saved.

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James is a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience, the twelve tribes. Students of scripture have never been successful with making James a Christian epistle. They've always had to reason away the text and cut the sides off the square pegs to make it fit the round hole. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul's epistles, he downgraded it to subcanonical status and called it a "right strawy epistle" stating that one day he'd light his stove with it's pages.

The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things.
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand it's intended Jewish audience and Jewish content for God's physical kingdom people.
 

FlyingDove

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Dec 27, 2017
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#59
Can you imagine the ABSURDITY of addressing unsaved Jews (the whole nation of Israel) within the New Testament, while teaching them Christian truths? The unsaved had already rejected Christ and the Gospel so why would they obey Christian directives? But both James and Peter are addressing HEBREW CHRISTIANS. Those who were within the Church. Peter calls them strangers (or sojourners, παρεπιδήμοις, parepidēmois = someone passing through) since after the persecution of Hebrew Christians in Jerusalem and Judea, they were in fact scattered throughout the Roman empire: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, This is the same group addressed by James.

ALL THE EPISTLES ARE WRITTEN TO THE CHILDREN OF GOD -- CHRISTIANS -- AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THEY ARE ADDRESSED TO HEBREW CHRISTIANS EXCLUSIVELY OR BOTH GROUPS (INCLUDING GENTILES). As we know, in the Body of Christ that distinction is null and void.
1st The thread is about the book of James. Peter's epistle is another topic. Briefly, the strangers Peter is referring to are believing Jews. They had fled Jerusalem for their lives. Because of anti Christ law zealots like Saul. They were now STRANGERS in the lands of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia & Bithynia. Forcing gentiles into the verse is unscriptural & fits only because Nehemiah6 says so.

The NT Body of Christ consists of BOTH Jew & gentile. When James is written (in the 40's) their was no NT body of Christ. Gentiles don't have any accepted/sanctioned relationship with God until the Council At Jerusalem, early 50's.

2ndly Scripture is clear James 1:1 is written to the 12 Tribes/JEWS ONLY. That doesn't mean the book isn't God breathed/IT IS! That doesn't mean NT Body of Christ believers can't glean many truths from it/THEY CAN! It does mean it's written to a Church/Assembly/Congregation void of gentiles & therefore NOT written to the NT (BOTH/Jew & Gentile) Body of Christ!

ekklésia can be translated: CHURCH-ASSEMBLY-CONGREGATION

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
(MY NOTE: This WILDERNESS Church/Assembly/Congregation has NO gentiles & NO part with the Holy Spirit indwelt NT Body of Christ believer)

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
(MY NOTE: Although this Church/Assembly/Congregation has NT Holy Spirit indwelt believers. NO gentiles are a part/present YET! And forcing them into this Church/Assembly/Congregation is unscriptural!)

Acts8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
(MY NOTE: Forcing gentiles into the church at Jerusalem is FAR FETCHED! It's several YEARS after Acts 2 Pentecost (the beginning of the Church at Jerusalem) Peter & other Jewish believers go to Cornelius house (Acts 10). Here gentiles are introduced to God the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44). The believing Jews present are ASTONISHED that gentiles received Christ's eternal life giving Holy Spirit. It's 14 YEARS later! At the Gal 2:3 event where Titus (a Greek) is circumcised & enters the Temple. That lead to the Acts 21:28-3 event. Where Jews drag Paul outside & begin to BEAT him to DEATH. For allowing a gentile into the Temple Acts 22:20-21. This notion/YOUR CLAIM that gentiles were running freely around the Church at Jerusalem is FAR FETCHED! The Church/Assembly/Congregation at Jerusalem was ALL Jewish believers & therefore NOT the NT (Jew & Gentile) Body of Christ!

Additional context:
Jews (to include the Lord himself Matt 15:26) often referred to Gentiles as unclean "dogs". (See Matt 7:6; Lk 16:21)

Gentiles were considered bastards outside of covenant seals, so ungodly, simply being in their presence could make a Jew ceremonially unclean. (See Jn 18:28 below)

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(MY NOTE: Gentiles were Pre Acts 10 to include Acts 2 Pentecost. """Strangers from the covenants of promise""" """having no hope""" without God in the world:

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(MY NOTE: The Temple area had 4 courts: The Court of the Gentiles, everyone was allowed here. The Court of the Women, other Israelites were allowed there but, women weren't allowed beyond. The Court of Israel, men 20yrs & up only. The Court of the Priests, Priests only)

The middle WALL of PARTITION Paul is referring to was a wall of stone balusters. That separated/divided the outer temple Courtyard of the Gentiles (considered ungodly/impure) from the rest of the temple. Warnings were posted in Latin & Greek. Any foreign uncircumcised person caught crossing into another courtyard was punishable by DEATH. Not a fine or Jail time DEATH!)

John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
(MY NOTE: The Jews wouldn't even walk into the Roman/gentile judgment hall, lest they should be defiled/become unclean. They wouldn't enter because they wanted to eat the passover meal on the next day. There was a 7 day ritual cleansing period that had to be honored once deemed unclean.

Acts 10:28 happens many years after Acts 2 Pentecost. Peter has a vision & argues, 3 TIMES, with the Lord about things clean & unclean. The Lord tells Peter, if I say it's clean IT'S CLEAN, now go with these gentiles I'm sending to you!

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ""unlawful"" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(MY NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius/a gentile. IT'S AGAINST MOSAIC LAW for a Jew to keep company with a gentile. And Nehemiah6 claims James a Mosaic law adherent Jew is writing to gentiles!)

Finally for the repent & be WATER baptized promoters:

Baptism-Spiritual-Circumcision

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(MY NOTE: John the Baptist made clear that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(NOTE: By ONE SPIRIT/HOLY SPIRIT. ALL believers (Jew/Gentile) are baptized into ONE BODY/JESUS. Only Christ baptizes with/in the Holy Spirit. NO H2O used!)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(MY NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL CIRCUMCISION. ""Preformed by Christ alone"" without hands & NO H2O!)

Deut 30:6 (A) the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart,

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(MY NOTE: Praise Jesus the only one that knows the true heart & the only One that can Spiritually circumcise/baptize!)
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#60
The NT Body of Christ consists of BOTH Jew & gentile. When James is written (in the 40's) their was no NT body of Christ. Gentiles don't have any accepted/sanctioned relationship with God until the Council At Jerusalem, early 50's.
TOTALLY FALSE. The Gentiles saved in the household of Cornelius were a part of the Church long before James wrote his epistle and long before the Council at Jerusalem. So were many others throughout the Roman empire. When James speaks of the "twelve tribes" he is speaking from God's perspective. God saw the Hebrew Christians and noted that they were all within the twelve tribes since the day of Pentecost. The Gospel was also preached very early in Samaria, where those of the "lost" ten tribes dwelt.

THE POINT IS THAT NOT ONE NT EPISTLE IS ADDRESSED TO THE UNSAVED. WHETHER JEW OR GENTILE.