What is a church?

DJT_47 · Sep 12, 2023

Read the introductions in the various letters of the NT; To the church of God at Corinth. To the churches of Galatia; to the church of the Thessalonians;

The church is not just a gigantic worldwide body, but rather is made up of the myriad of local congregations, each of which IS the church at their respective locales.

wattie · Sep 12, 2023

1 co 12 description of the body of Christ IS the church at Corinth.

So is each local body God gives His presence to

wattie · Sep 13, 2023

From Arthur Pink: https://awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/

In proof of what has been said above, let us examine those passages where the term was used by our Lord Himself during the days of His flesh. Only twice in the four Gospels do we find Christ speaking of the “church.” The first is in Matthew 16:18

where He said unto Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” What kind of a “church” was the Savior here referring to? The vast majority of Christians have understood it as the great invisible, mystical, and universal Church, which comprises all His redeemed. But they are certainly wrong. Had this been His meaning He had necessarily said, “Upon this Rock I am building My church.”

Instead, He used the future tense, “I will build,” which shows clearly that at the time He spoke, His “church” had no existence, save in the purpose of God. the “church” to which Christ referred in Matthew 16:18

could not be a universal one, that is, a church which included all the saints of God, for the tense of the verb used by Him on this occasion manifestly excluded the O. T. saints! Thus, the first time that the word “church” occurs in the N. T. it has no reference to a general or universal one. Further, our Lord could not be referring to the Church in glory, for it will be in no danger of “the gates of hell”! His declaration that, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” makes it clear beyond all doubt that Christ was referring to His church upon earth, and thus, to a visible and local church.

The only other record we have of our Lord speaking about the “church” while He was on earth, is found in Matthew 18:17

, “If he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” Now the only kind of a “church” to which a brother could relate his “fault” is a visible and local one. So obvious is this, there is no need to further enlarge upon it.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 13, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Read the first three chapters of Revelation for a better understanding. Those are also called "churches" but are full of apostasy.

DJT_47 · Sep 13, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Not quite correct. And your point being that apostasy would dimehiw mean they weren't really a church ever nor the members of those congregations were all non Christians. Makes no sense. Plus, most were told they were in error and had to repent or. YOU read them. You can be an errant Christian in need of repentance but being errant or in sin doesn't make you a non-Christian.

Bruce_Leiter · Sep 13, 2023

wattie said:

Looking just from the bible, there are key things a church is and isn't .

Is.... an assembly of baptised believers, with Jesus as the Head. Covenants together to carry out the Great commission and commandment.

Isn't ...the building this group would meet at.

Is... assembled

Isn't .. unassembled

Is ... visible

Isn't .. invisible

Is... of saved and baptised members

Isn't ...of unsaved people (they would be visitors..not members)

Is... a place to worship Jesus

Isn't ... a social club

What do you say?

You're right except that the church is a single assembly and the whole world's group of believers.

Aaron56 · Sep 13, 2023

wattie said:

From Arthur Pink: https://awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/

In proof of what has been said above, let us examine those passages where the term was used by our Lord Himself during the days of His flesh. Only twice in the four Gospels do we find Christ speaking of the “church.” The first is in Matthew 16:18

where He said unto Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” What kind of a “church” was the Savior here referring to? The vast majority of Christians have understood it as the great invisible, mystical, and universal Church, which comprises all His redeemed. But they are certainly wrong. Had this been His meaning He had necessarily said, “Upon this Rock I am building My church.”

Instead, He used the future tense, “I will build,” which shows clearly that at the time He spoke, His “church” had no existence, save in the purpose of God. the “church” to which Christ referred in Matthew 16:18

could not be a universal one, that is, a church which included all the saints of God, for the tense of the verb used by Him on this occasion manifestly excluded the O. T. saints! Thus, the first time that the word “church” occurs in the N. T. it has no reference to a general or universal one. Further, our Lord could not be referring to the Church in glory, for it will be in no danger of “the gates of hell”! His declaration that, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” makes it clear beyond all doubt that Christ was referring to His church upon earth, and thus, to a visible and local church.

The only other record we have of our Lord speaking about the “church” while He was on earth, is found in Matthew 18:17

, “If he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” Now the only kind of a “church” to which a brother could relate his “fault” is a visible and local one. So obvious is this, there is no need to further enlarge upon it.

The church is both local and corporate. Did Pink not have the rest of scripture? It would have really helped him understand this better.

DRobinson · Sep 13, 2023

The original meaning of the world translated church was a local called our assembly.
This local assembly could meet face to face.
This word was later changed to include all the saved. Not sure who or when.
I will stick with the original meaning.

wattie · Sep 13, 2023

Aaron56 said:

There is more to his article..this is just an excerpt. Plus there are other authors I can show saying the same thing

wattie · Sep 13, 2023

What these authors are showing in scripture isn't that all redeemed aren't an entity in themselves. They show that all redeemed is in the Family of God. Not the body of Christ which scripture describes as local. See what the body is in 1co 12.

wattie · Sep 13, 2023

Bruce_Leiter said:

The whole world group of believers is not a church yet. That will happen... But isn't a current entity. They will assemble as one in the New Jerusalem eventually. But we don't have that yet.

GaryA · Sep 14, 2023

wattie said:

http://mywebsite.us/ABA/Topics/Local_New_Testament_Church.html

Nehemiah6 · Sep 14, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Those who are professing Christians in name only but not born again are actually "non-Christian". So do you think Jezebel and the Nicolaitans were Christians? Yet they were grouped with the "church" at their locations. A local church has both wheat and tares. But in Scripture it is simply called "the church at ______". Also, all that is stated about the church at Laodicea applies to the unsaved.

DJT_47 · Sep 14, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Your first line statement is wrong with no scriptural support for such a claim. You need to understand how one is saved, which you obviously don't. How was the Ethiopian eunuch saved. What exactly happened there in Acts 8? How were the Jews saved on the day of Pentecost? What exactly happened? Those 2 scriptures tell the completeness of the salvation process. So if someone likewise does the same, they are saved.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism

Do the above and you're saved, which I'm certain these are the things that the individuals in the 7 churches of Asia did.

Was the church at Ephesus saved when the letter was written to them by Paul? If so, then how do you reconcile your thought process with the calling out of the church at Ephesus in Rev 2? What were they told to do? Paul referred to those at Ephesus as saints in Ephesians 1.1
All Christians are saints, meaning they were saved. In Rev 2, the Lord indicates they lost their way, losing their first love and they are told to repent. Keep studying.

wattie · Sep 15, 2023

The fact in Revelation is whole churches being called to repent. These churches earlier in the NT consisted of saved and baptised membership.

The nicolatians had teaching that some in the church held, but is it that the nicolatians were part of one of these churches?

The Ephesians church:

Revelation 2:5-6 KJV
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. [6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate

The pergamos church

Revelation 2:12-15 KJV
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; [13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is : and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. [14] But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate

It doesn't specify that the people with issues in this church are not saved members. But the evidence of previous letters to churches is the assumption that saved people are being addressed.

Many churches can carry problems associated with the culture and traditions of the area they are in. But that doesn't mean those with those issues aren't saved members.

The church at Corinth had a lot going on from pagan influences of the area. But they were being addressed as saved and baptised believers. They were abusing the Lord's Supper, and had disorder in using the gifts of the Spirit.

.

wattie · Sep 16, 2023

From Pastor Jack Hyles:

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Boo... Hyles/The Church/what_is_a_church-chap_2.htm

Jesus was building one of the following when He started the church.

1. a church consisting of all believers.
2. a denomination.
3. a congregation.

All three cannot be true, and no two can be true. Either Jesus started a local assembly, a denomination, or the church is composed of all believers (an invisible church). Jesus said, "upon this rock! will build my church." He did not say, "I will build my churches." We must then decide which one is right.

Some people say that the church is composed of all believers. Some people say the church is a denomination. Some people say that the church is a congregation of people. Which is right? Let's reason.

1. It could not be all believers.

If it is all believers, what happened from Adam to Christ? If the church was started on Pentecost, which it was not (that will be covered in a later chapter), then what happened to all of the Old Testament people? Were they not saved? If, when a person gets saved, he is baptized into the church, (an invisible body of all the same people), then Moses and Abraham were unsaved. Therefore, it could not be all believers.

2. The church that Jesus started in Matthew 16:8 was not started then.

He said he was going to start it. It was the same church which was mentioned in Matthew 18:17.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matthew 18:17
The word church used here is the same word ekklesia which is mentioned in Matthew 16:18. How can you tell something to an invisible church? You cannot tell it to every Christian if every Christian forms the church. When He said to tell it to the church, He was referring to a group of people who have been called out of the world. When you get saved, you are called out of the world, but God has an institution he wants you to join, so you can reassemble. It must be a local body of believers. If it is the local body of believers, then it is not invisible.
The average Baptist does not believe or know this. We do not teach it any more. Jesus started only one church. It cannot be visible and invisible. So, if it is the visible church, there can be no invisible church. I take issue with Mr. Scofield when he refers to the visible and the invisible churches. The true church is a group of born-again baptized believers, who have a common bond of having Christ in their lives, having been born again, made new creatures in Christ Jesus, and trying to propagate that wonderful message, so that others can receive the message of grace. That is the true church. This needs to be emphasized. We accepted inter-denominational teaching, and, as a result, have damaged the true church.
When the invisible church-goers want to raise money, they always go to a visible church to raise the money. Isn't that interesting? They do not send their money-raisers out to invisible churches, because invisible churches give invisible money. There is a mentality that is sweeping this nation that if you "Grow in grace" you do not need to have a local church. People have the idea that you can join the Gideons, Youth for Christ, Child Evangelism, or some other group instead of being a part of a local New Testament church. Any ministry can do better in a true church than it can outside of it. The greatest child evangelism program is in the local church. The greatest youth for Christ program is in the local church. More Jewish people are reached by the local church than in all of the Jewish ministries that are operated outside of the church.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will! sing praise unto thee. Hebrews 2:9-12
Jesus said that He was going to preach and sing in the church. The church could not have started on Pentecost. It had to have been started in the personal ministry of Christ because the Bible says that He sang and preached in it. It is not talking about His invisible presence in the church. It is talking about the fact that Jesus went to church during His earthly ministry. He would not start a church, and then not show up when it met.

Cameron143 · Sep 16, 2023

wattie said:

From Pastor Jack Hyles:

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Boo... Hyles/The Church/what_is_a_church-chap_2.htm

Jesus was building one of the following when He started the church.

1. a church consisting of all believers.
2. a denomination.
3. a congregation.

All three cannot be true, and no two can be true. Either Jesus started a local assembly, a denomination, or the church is composed of all believers (an invisible church). Jesus said, "upon this rock! will build my church." He did not say, "I will build my churches." We must then decide which one is right.

Some people say that the church is composed of all believers. Some people say the church is a denomination. Some people say that the church is a congregation of people. Which is right? Let's reason.

1. It could not be all believers.

If it is all believers, what happened from Adam to Christ? If the church was started on Pentecost, which it was not (that will be covered in a later chapter), then what happened to all of the Old Testament people? Were they not saved? If, when a person gets saved, he is baptized into the church, (an invisible body of all the same people), then Moses and Abraham were unsaved. Therefore, it could not be all believers.

2. The church that Jesus started in Matthew 16:8 was not started then.

He said he was going to start it. It was the same church which was mentioned in Matthew 18:17.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matthew 18:17
The word church used here is the same word ekklesia which is mentioned in Matthew 16:18. How can you tell something to an invisible church? You cannot tell it to every Christian if every Christian forms the church. When He said to tell it to the church, He was referring to a group of people who have been called out of the world. When you get saved, you are called out of the world, but God has an institution he wants you to join, so you can reassemble. It must be a local body of believers. If it is the local body of believers, then it is not invisible.
The average Baptist does not believe or know this. We do not teach it any more. Jesus started only one church. It cannot be visible and invisible. So, if it is the visible church, there can be no invisible church. I take issue with Mr. Scofield when he refers to the visible and the invisible churches. The true church is a group of born-again baptized believers, who have a common bond of having Christ in their lives, having been born again, made new creatures in Christ Jesus, and trying to propagate that wonderful message, so that others can receive the message of grace. That is the true church. This needs to be emphasized. We accepted inter-denominational teaching, and, as a result, have damaged the true church.
When the invisible church-goers want to raise money, they always go to a visible church to raise the money. Isn't that interesting? They do not send their money-raisers out to invisible churches, because invisible churches give invisible money. There is a mentality that is sweeping this nation that if you "Grow in grace" you do not need to have a local church. People have the idea that you can join the Gideons, Youth for Christ, Child Evangelism, or some other group instead of being a part of a local New Testament church. Any ministry can do better in a true church than it can outside of it. The greatest child evangelism program is in the local church. The greatest youth for Christ program is in the local church. More Jewish people are reached by the local church than in all of the Jewish ministries that are operated outside of the church.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will! sing praise unto thee. Hebrews 2:9-12
Jesus said that He was going to preach and sing in the church. The church could not have started on Pentecost. It had to have been started in the personal ministry of Christ because the Bible says that He sang and preached in it. It is not talking about His invisible presence in the church. It is talking about the fact that Jesus went to church during His earthly ministry. He would not start a church, and then not show up when it met.

What was the rock Jesus was building His church upon?

wattie · Sep 16, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Himself. Or the testimony of Peter as Jesus being the Christ.

Cameron143 · Sep 16, 2023

wattie said:

Or...the revelation of God to Peter who Jesus truly is.
The antecedent to upon this rock is flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 16, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Can there be any doubt that that Rock is Christ? Only Catholics will reject this.

What is a church?

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member