There will be no Rapture!!!

The trib does not start with any of the seals. The trib starts at the 6th trump. The church is mentioned many times using different terms such as candlesticks, two witnesses and the 144k, saints that are killed etc.

I find that highly unlikely. The death of a fourth of the world's population is not part of the Tribulation? How did you arrive at that? How is that not tribulation? How is that not wrath, because if anyone is going write off the idea that the death of so many billions is not at all a form of tribulational event, then how does anyone arbitrarily set that threshold way off into the 6th trump?

How is it that the conquering of nations is allegedly not a beginning of the tribulation at the very first seal? How is it that so many dead standing before the Throne in chapter 7 is not an indicator, far in advance of the trumpets, not an indicator that the Tribulation has already begun? It is written that those days will be as no other in the history of the world, please explain that. This is interesting.

MM

Paul does not want the brethren to be ignorant concerning the bodily resurrection. Those who have died will be caught up with them along with those who are alive and remain. It is the gathering up of all things in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The seals described future events.


Rev 11 shows the end of the trib, that it is happening within the 6th trump. IMO the trib is simply only the 6th trump events, not other trumps which I view as 5 prior to the trib, and of course the last being the second coming and wrath of God.

?(scratching head)?

What happens in the 6th trump? Because I thought the GT started in the second half of the 7 years when the AC abolishes the daily sacrifices and desecrates the temple, forcing the unsaved to make him their god and also killing off everyone who refuses to worship him and take his mark (mostly faithful Christians who endure).

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The 6th trump is the tribulation, all of it. It is 42 months not 7 years. It used to be 7 years but Jesus said it was shortened. If you want, you can think of the first 3.5 years of the trib as not being the start of the trib anymore, if that helps. In that scenario, only the second half of the trib, the "GT", will occur.

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


We know the Man of Lawlessness is REVEALED when he sits on the Temple Throne declaring himself as God.
and we know, this ^ does not happen until [[AFTER]] Mid -Point.

But, it ""IS NOT" Mid-Trib, it is PRE-WRATH, just like John's/Polycarp's Disciple wrote [Irenaeus]

Amen!

because, after John wrote this, and then he was released from Patmos, He and his Disciples took these 7 Churches and Corrected them.
John was Bishop and his Disciples were Pastors of these Churches.


But these Churches MEAN NOTHING to what Revelation is about with ONE EXCEPTION, the SINS.

Look at the First Church and when we SEE this SIN evident in the WORLD and in the CHURCH after 100 AD.
Now look at how we are today, we are neither Hot or Cold but LUKEWARM [the Great Falling Away], so clearly, we are in the SIN AGE of Laodecia.

You can literally take ALL 7 Churches SINS and SEE where they fall in line these past 1800 years until right now.

It's not my intention to misrepresent Revelation 13 nor force something Irenaeus said into Scripture my point and the point Irenaeus is making is that in the Revelation John is saying "it LOOKED LIKE" that it was trying to mimic(it pretends to be Gods kingdom on earth) .

There is no mid point of the trib. The Ac will declare himself to be God right away, causing the Apostasy.

it's Pre-Wrath!

The AC can't declare he is God until he can sit on the Temple Throne of God.

there is a one week covenant made
then the Temple is built and Daily Sacrifice begins
at mid-point, Daily Sacrifice will end
the AC sits on the Temple Throne declaring himself God

That happens right away. Also, Paul didn't say "throne of God" but just sitting in the temple of God and the temple of God in many places in the bible is a person themselves.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

no, it doesn't happen until day [1,290]
וּמֵעֵת֙ הוּסַ֣ר הַתָּמִ֔יד וְלָתֵ֖ת שִׁקּ֣וּץ שֹׁמֵ֑ם יָמִ֕ים אֶ֖לֶף מָאתַ֥יִם וְתִשְׁעִֽים׃
(From the time the regular offering is abolished, and an appalling abomination is set up—it will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days).
^
that is around mid-point Tribulation when the AC ends Offering to God and then claims he is God!

The 7 years is not the entire tribulation. It's the 7 years because at the start, the AC makes a peace treaty with Israel, which he breaks 3-1/2 years later at the middle of that treaty. When the AC abolishes the daily sacrifices at that time and desecrates the temple, that's the beginning of the GT.

If you read the actual things that happen during the 6th trumpet, it talks about something else entirely different.

Revelation 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

So as you can see, it doesn't talk specifically about the GT at all. I don't know how you came up with the 6th trumpet being the beginning of the GT.

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Where are there various temples of God in scripture? Tabernacles, yes, but temple?

That;'s old news. Christ said the trib's length was going to be shorter. It's not 7 years anymore.





Here is the ending of the 6th trumpet in a different part of scripture:

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Everything at verse 13 and before is the 6th trumpet and is the tribulation where the beast rules and the two witnesses have the 1260 days. That is the same length as the 42 months mentioned in verse two as well as in Rev 13. This makes the 6th trumpet's events 42 months long and is the full length of the tribulation.

This seems to argue that the Church is still in the world during the Tribulation. Am I correct?

Realistically, the practice of etherealizing the seven churches into ages, that's conjecture at best, and unprovable at worst. Looking at the declines in the institutional churches and translating that over onto the Church, which is all true believers, and thus condemning the Church along with the institutional system, as if it were representative of the Church in general...no. The institutional system is a creation of men, and always has been. I don't buy the practice of muddying the waters of distinction between the two.

Anyone who is lukewarm in their faith, they are not a part of the Church, because with God, there is only white and black, no shades of gray.

MM