There will be no Rapture!!!

EDIT to correct:

... I had grabbed the wrong line from BibleHub (they are so similar, so not much difference, but I do want to be ACCURATE), where it should have read (re: G3752): "When ["at the time when the condition is met,"] he shall come to be glorified in his saints,"









[again, this verse is not saying "when He comes TO GLORIFY His saints," but "when He shall come TO BE GLORIFIED IN His saints, and to be..."; and that's speaking of His Second Coming to the earth point in time (Rev19), when the v.9 things will take place]

Actually, this guy will not set himself up in “Kalamazoo, Michigan.” He will show up in Jerusalem, claiming to be God, performing all kinds of supernatural wondrous wonders! Remember that Satan will imitate Jesus Christ in everything he does. Not only that, he comes in peaceably claiming “peace, peace!” The world will love him dearly and worship him. They will fall away from worshiping the true Christ to worshiping the fake christ. Listen, the deception of the end times is spiritual. Satan wants your soul. Do not be deceived. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Matthew 24:24 (KJV)

100%

Jesus doesn't "COME BACK" to "INFLICT" this "VENGEANCE" on them, He does so FROM HEAVEN (for the 7-yr period) with his "MIGHTY angels,"

Bro....you have GOT TO derail that one track mindset of yours. PLEASE!
Every denial of sound exegesis you make hinges on this utterly PREPOSTEROUS precept/misapprehension/irrational mind-burp of yours.

ALL ESCHATOLOGICAL "STUFF" CANNOT ALL HAPPEN AT PRECISELY THE EXACT NANO?-PICO?-FEMTO?- SECOND OF "JESUS COMING"....!!!

I can't bro. It doesn't. It won't.

No, I will believe what the Bible says about the time frame. II Thessalonians 1 shows us a number of things He will do when He comes. Your taking some of that list and putting it before His coming.

I think you are basing doctrine on the turn of phrase in some translations, which, for the sake of English readability, create a new sentence out of verse 9. But read it in an interlinear or read Young's Literal Translation, which captures the long sentence.


6 since [it is] a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,

7 and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,

8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

10 when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;


Notice in verse 10 that this happens 'when he comes to be glorified in the saints.' I am not saying 'may come.' It literally translates a subjunctive, but that is a stilted focus on the word not the meaning in context, IMO.

So look at what happens 'WHEN he comes.' Here is a list of things:

When He comes:
* God gives back tribulation to those causing the church tribulation/trouble
* and give sthe church rest
* in/at the revelation of Jesus Christ in flaming fire giving vengeance on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel
* who suffer justice
* When Jesus comes....

Lots of stuff happens when Jesus comes.

Have a look at an interliner

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1.htm

Also the word for 'comes' or 'may com'e in the YLT is a word that translates rather directly as 'come.' (It might be 'go' also as I recall. English is rather particular about that.) 'Parousia' is translated 'coming' but more literally has to do with presenting or being present, but is used like 'come' in Greek. An army that shows up in Greek is present or presents itself when it arrives at the battle (just an example from something I read, in Greek not trying to imply battle is a part of the meaning of the word..)


This is all one sentence. This is another case of your assuming pre-trib, a system external to scripture, and assigning veres to time periods on the dispensational chart or schema you have in your mind.

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus comes back? Where does the Bible teach the pre-trib assumptions that you use when you say "This scripture goes a tthis time, and this one goes at that time."

Paul sets the rapture at the parousia of the Lord in I Thessalonians 4. II Thessalonians 2:8 sets the destruction of the man of sin at the coming of the Lord. There is one little part of Revelation 19 we both agree refers to the coming of the Lord, and right in that passage the beast is thrown into the lake of fire.

Where does Revelation mention another coming of Jesus before that? Show me chapter and verse. Where does the Lord Jesus or one of the apostles in scripture or one of the prophets in the Old Testament lay it out for us that Jesus comes back before that return in Revelation 19, after the ascension. Show me in scripture.

What pre-tribbers do is ASSUME this pretrib scenario of Jesus coming back two more times and then say the rapture happens at this coming of the Lord, and then the destruction of the man of sin happens at this verse. I suppose I could do the same thing and count all the references to the return of Christ and say there are a bunch of them, that He comes back, and sanctifies the church body soul and spirit, then comes back again and destroys the man of sin and resurrects the dead in the first resurrection, then comes back again and raptures the church and raises the dead in Christ, etc. But if I did so, that would be convoluted nonsense. How is pretrib any different, except it just does that two times instead of a bunch of times?

What is your Biblical basis for saying there are two returns of Christ then sorting and assigning verses to that timeline? Show me from scripture. If you can't, why defend it, or hold on to that system. I want to also direct these questions in the past few paragraphs to @cv5.

And if you can't provide that, why in the world would you defend pretrib and still keep grasping at straws to try to make passages that don't fit, fit into that system?


When He comes. It's in II Thessalonians 2.




That's a convoluted way to say when. That list of things happen when the condition is met... and the condition is that He comes (to be glorified in his saints..)

Our glorification comes through Christ being glorified in us, an amazing truth. But it still tells us this happens 'when He comes.'

When He shall come.

Matthew 24 tells us that the coming of the Son of man happens 'after the tribulation of those days.

If pretrib is true, show me a passage that show or teaches that Jesus comes back before then.

Sound exegesis? This stuff you guys are presenting isnt' sound exegesis. You haven't presented any scripture and exegeted an additional return of Christ after it. You assume an additional pre-trib return without Biblical support, then assign some scriptures about the return of Christ to your additional return and others to the returnof Christ.

Bro......please. Come to understand, perceive and realize the following is true:

You have NEVER, not once in YEARS, on ANY rapture thread, successfully refuted ANY POINT (ANY! NEVER! NOT ONCE!) that @TheDivineWatermark has proffered.

That's why I keep saying "pre-tribbers batting 1000" "pre-tribbers cleaning house" ad nauseum. THEY ARE.

I have to tell you sir that you, on the other hand, are batting ZERO. ZERO. Striking out at the plate EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Frankly its hard to sit in the peanut gallery and watch. Really, I'm not kidding. Its just over the top embarrasing man.

It was a joke (as to location), which is why I inserted the bracketed phrase to ensure folks didn't miss or misunderstand my actual point.



Perhaps go back and note that detail I'd put?






["earth" (location) is not the same as "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (location) and "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" there]

@presidente : truly, I am exquisitely extraordinarily thrilled at the seeing of your "thumbs up".

Made my day, week and month bro. Maybe year. Seriously.

But even if you want to say it's a long sentence, it does not mean that all of it is happening at once (when the "when" stuff does).


Let me give somewhat of a similar example, so that maybe you can see what I mean...

... taking a look at how Young's Literal Translation puts the 2Th2:6-8 passage, as one long sentence, and has the word "parousia" (re: Jesus) in there, does not mean that everything in this very long sentence (per the ylt) happens at that "parousia" being spoken of in verse 8... Does SOME OF IT occur at that point[?], YES... but not everything in the one long sentence does, just because it's all in the one long sentence. Take a look at how the ylt reads, there (notice how the ylt supplies numerous commas, making this "one long sentence"):


[after mentioning the MOS's "be revealed" earlier in verse 3b]

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time, 7for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] — till he may be out of the way, 8and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence [parousia], 9[him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.




Now, just because verse 9--still part of this one long sentence (per ylt)--says, "9[him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders" right behind where v.8 had just said stuff about what will happen AT JESUS' "PAROUSIA," does that mean that everything in verse 9 (in red) happens AT JESUS' "PAROUSIA" (they are both part OF THE SAME SENTENCE, so according to your logic, yes, they will ALL take place on the singular "24-hr day" of Christ's return, and not only vv.8&9, but the entire sentence-worth of stuff (vv.6-12 which make up this "one long sentence" which happens to possess the word "parousia [re: Jesus]" WITHIN this long sentence!!)



How do you think such an argument makes good sense? Thoughts?




Basically, by disregarding "what happens when, in relation to what other things."








[according to Greek scholars, the Greek doesn't have any punctuation... Just supplying this info for the readers]

EDIT to correct:

"... taking a look at how Young's Literal Translation puts the 2Th2:6-8 passage, as one long sentence, and has the word "parousia" (re: Jesus) in there, does not mean that [...]"


Obviously, I had meant "2Th2:6-12" (which passage I quoted, where ylt makes it all one long sentence by its numerous commas)

Let me ask you this:
1) Do you think that these verses are describing the 2520 day tribulation period? Or even 1260 days for that matter?
2) How much verse 6 trouble? How long does this trouble last? Who are the targets? How is this trouble described in Revelation?
3) what kind of verse 8 vengeance is it and how long does it last? How many people/groups and particular events are targeted/described in Revelation? Does God provide commentary as this vengeance proceeds?
4) what kind of verse 9 justice/destruction? What is destroyed? Does this destruction and justice come periodically in phases? Does God provide commentary as this justice/destruction proceeds?
5) and most importantly, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS TROUBLE-JUSTICE-DESTRUCTION? Is anyone repenting and coming to Christ while all of this is happening???? Does this repenting and soul-saving NECESSARILY occur over a period of time?

They are not the elect but those without the seal of God.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Got no clue what you are talking about with the tombs up. It must have been a butt dial type thumbs up.

I read these threads. I ask for evidence that Jesus returns twice or for a pretrib rapture. You don't present it. You refer to TDW's posts, don't provide the evidence (nor does he), then you brag like you proved something.

I understand your viewpoint…. And yet, there will be other people there during that time who humbly submit to God. I’m not certain what you believe about that, but I believe the devil will flee from those who have the seal of God in their foreheads.

“Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” (James 4:7)

I am afraid the tribulation will be a bit different than that:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

However, those with the seal of God may be some of those who survive the trib and are raptured. Sadly, many brothers and sisters will be killed as mentioned in the above verse.

Read the passage.

Jesus comes back and gives the church, which has been experiencing tribulation, recompensing those who caused it trouble. The word translated 'trouble' 'is the word for 'tribulation' in the phrase' the great tribulation.' Matthew describes the coming of the Son of man as occurring ___after the tribulation.___ TDW seems inclined to make this passage refer to the tribulation, instead of to the coming of the Lord.

Read Revelation 19 and the passages that follow.

Wow. Too bad. Felt like I won the lottery for a little while though ROFL........

But recall, verse 4 is saying of the Thessalonians (in their day): "in all your persecutionS and tribulationS THAT YE ENDURE [PRESENT tense]"...

... so the text goes on to say,

2Th 1:4
So G5620 that we G2248 ourselves G846 glory G2744 in G1722 you G5213 in G1722 the churches G1577 of God G2316 for G5228 your G5216 patience G5281 and G2532 faith G4102 in G1722 all G3956 your G5216 persecutions G1375 and G2532 tribulations G2347 that G3739 ye endure: G430


Which is a manifest token G1730 of the righteous G1342 judgment G2920 of God, G2316 that G1519 ye G5209 may be counted worthy G2661 of the kingdom G932 of God, G2316 for G5228 which G3739 ye G3958 ➔ also G2532 suffer: G3958


Seeing G1512 it is a righteous thing G1342 with G3844 God G2316 to recompense G467 tribulation G2347 to them that trouble G2346 you; G5209


And G2532 to you G5213 who are troubled G2346 rest G425 with G3326 us, G2257 [...]





So, back in their day, they were already experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS" (v.4)...

... so how does this support your contention?

I mean, both of us (I think) believe the time-period we call "The Tribulation Period" (occurring in the specific, future, limited years leading up to Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth) has NOT YET been in existence... Yet, the Thessalonians, back in the first century, were ALREADY experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS ye endure"... and "they that trouble [G2346] you" [present tense].

How does this help your case (in your most recent post, here)?? I'm not seeing it.


Pre-tribbers do NOT deny that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [that's US] has experienced "persecutions and tribulations" ALL THROUGHOUT its existence SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY... (we are not waiting for the future "7-yr period" IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE it!)



No, it's covering both (as I've said).

You're making the passage only about one of those.