The Trinity according to the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD

I thought that Bonhoffer was killed by the Nazis because of his faith? Was that not correct?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't teach the deity of Jesus.... it's just arguing over these nitpicky nuances is fruitless. I suppose there are too many people on here that just love to argue.
Discussion is one thing... I'm all for that, but you cannot read these threads and not see that they go off the rails into arguments pretty quickly.

my understanding of Luke 22:42 is that we are seeing the supposed tension or friction between the justice of God and the mercy of God playing out.

i say "supposed" because God is perfect and His will is beyond question, perfect -- so there is no fault in it.
and i see this as something beyond human comprehension ((see Psalm 139:6)) but something God is giving us a glimpse of by causing this to be recorded.

i see this as His holiness "vs" His lovingkindness because it concerns the cup: that cup is His act of atonement on the cross. if we look at the result of it we see what the "two wills" are, because God is not ignorant; He is weighing ((to strongly anthropomorphize)) in Himself the ends/outcomes of the two paths before Him: to atone for the sin of man, effecting salvation, or to judge man by his works. this is intricately and inescapably tied to Genesis 3 and to Job ((and some other places)) and foreshadowed in Genesis 15 -- Satan has a hand at play, in the view of all the angels, accusing God of being unjust and his 'trump card' if you will, is the free will of man freely choosing evil. this is a 'problem' as Satan presents it, tacitly accusing God of being unrighteous and/or untrue. Salvation is the answer to that -- the saga of mankind is the answer in evidence before all the angels. so does God forgive sin through gracefully mediating for man, or does He judge man, poisoned as we are by the deceit of the Serpent?

if Christ takes the cup, mercy outweighs justice, and He makes a just Way for us to be justified through Him.
if Christ turns away the cup, holiness outweighs mercy, and we are held to account for what we are justly guilty of.

Christ is appointed judge of the whole world -- to Him is all judgement handed over. so the taking of the cup is not a simple matter of ((as it is often portrayed in hideously heretical error)) Jesus being weak-kneed and scared and confused. it is a matter of supreme theological importance: it is the crux of the argument of Satan against God that swayed 1/3 of the angelic host. will He judge sin or acquit it, how can He be righteous without destroying His entire creation?

and the answer is faith, hope, and love.

Jesus is not saying He is scared to physically die by saying 'if it is Your will let the cup pass' -- He is expressing all the authority of the Hammer of the whole earth, ready to judge the quick and the dead. He is not denying His own deity but strongly affirming it - and He isn't expressing confusion or division in the Godhead, but expressing the truth of righteous judgement, the antithesis of the Egyptian 'scale of Anubis' in which mercy was never taken into account but only works: He is effectively communicating to us that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, saying, He is ready and able to judge, but let God ((Himself)) show mercy according to His own good pleasure.

this isn't a conversation He **needs** to have in prayer or aloud. this is written for us.

Sir, I am going to borrow your signature: "I could be wrong, I have been before."
It might be useful to lighten the atmosphere when encountering some individuals.

Strictly speaking we should not talk of the incarnation, but of the incarnate one. The former interest arises out of the

the hypothesis of the virgin birth. Both historically and dogmatically it can be questioned. The biblical witness is ambiguous. If the biblical witness gave clear evidence of the fact, then the dogmatic obscurity might not have been so important. The doctrine of the virgin birth is meant to express the incarnation of God, not only the fact of the incarnate one. But does it not fail at the decisive point of the incarnation, namely that in it Jesus has not become man just like us? The question remains open, as and because it is already open in the Bible.

Here he is casting doubt about the diety of Christ becaise when we speak of the incarnation of Christ being the incarnation of God. Every human is incarnate. To say the "incarnate one" simply make him human alone. His words here are a slippery obfuscation.

Here he is casting doubt about the virgin birth of Christ and thussly casting doubt of the deity of Christ.

The last part casts doubt on the sinlessness of Christ and on original sin.

Bonhoeffer is a slippery ome who covers his intent with many complex obfuscations and tedious words.

Fair enough, I can see your point. You also said he abandoned the Bible and Christianity altogether. What's your source for that?

You still did not answer my question! I just want to find out if trinitarians are consistent in what they believe.

Its in how he describes what Christianity is and what he says about the relyability of scriptures in his letters. So there isnt a source that says "hey guys i no longer read my bible".

Sir, I am going to borrow your signature: "I could be wrong, I have been before."
It might be useful to lighten the atmosphere when encountering some individuals.

The Father is so pleased with the Son that He calls Christ a God, and gives Him a kingdom (the Church) that makes up His spiritual body of righteous saints with Him as the head.

ok sure.



Can you quote this hostility? Or are you unstable and making things up?



Just because you have a problem with His real name has no bearing on me.

Psalms 111:9, “He sent redemption to His people, He has commanded His covenant forever. Set-apart and awesome is His Name.”



He desires followers, the Great Shepherd wants those that love Him to follow Him.

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Hi CorrectiveLens,
I just wanted to know, for clarities sake, the highlighted portion of your post is an idea that is put forth by Jehovah's Witness group... are you Jehovah's Witness?

And for the record, I do agree with the Nicene Creed, for the most part... not yet comfortable with point #5.

I am not a Jehovah's Witness.
Heb 1: 8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
The Father gives Christ a kingdom to rule forever, made up of righteous beings who worship Him as their God. Notice that the Father refers to His Son as " O God ".
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
Matt 28 : 18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying , All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son and empowers Him through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Father and Son are One in that whatever the Father wants, the Son wants also. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly subjugates His will to the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.

He sits at the Father's right hand

Hello yet again CorrectiveLens, let's talk about the Father for a second in regard to all of this. You believe that He (the Father) is both omniscient and omnipotent, yes? IOW, there is nothing that He does not know, and nothing that He cannot do, yes?

Assuming that your answers to my last two questions are both "yes", then I'm fairly certain that, like me, you believe that the Father could choose to set aside part of His Divine attributes if He wanted to do so (because if He could not do so, how could He be considered omnipotent?). So, the only remaining question is this, if He did so, if He chose (for instance) to set aside part of His omniscience to forget something for our sakes, do you believe that He would still be "All God" afterwards (as this appears to be something that He does, in fact, do for us, yes)?

My thinking about this, about God choosing/being able to set aside part of His Divine attributes, either temporarily or permanently, is something that would confirm who He is for me, that He is indeed, God (who can do WHATEVER He desires). As some of the Scriptures say (OT/NT) in regard to this,
So, I'm pretty sure that the Lord Jesus (assuming for the moment at least that He is the one, true God, just like His Father is) would be able to do so as well, and still be "ALL" God.

Just a thought! Please let me know what yours are too.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

yet..

Revelation 22:3
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

"throne" is singular.
can your unorthodox theology explain this?
because orthodoxy can.

Thank you.

So, what are we to make of John 1:1-2? It sounds as if Jesus was at the beginning, with God.

John 1:1-2 (ESV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Greetings Brother. I apologize for taking so long to respond. I had read your post and purposed to respond, but I couldn't remember which tread, which post, and which poster. I finally found it and am responding.
You asked for my thoughts and here they are (some are beliefs and some are speculations):
1. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He is the invisible God. That is how He is everywhere and knows everything (even the future) and can do anything.
2. The beginning of Time started when Christ (the Word) was formed out of the Father's essence, thus the Father and Son relationship. You cannot have a Father and Son relationship if Christ was created out of nothing. Also, this Father and Son relationship occurs twice, once in the beginning and the second at the birth of Jesus.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence. The Father and Son are One in that whatever the Father wants, the Son wants also. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
3. Christ (the Word) is the image of the invisible God, has His own mind, will, heart, and soul, but the image is not the same as the original. The reason Christ is the image of the Father is because the Father (the invisible God) expresses Himself in our reality through His Son.
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him; And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the Church; who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence.
4. The Father (the invisible God) communicates, empowers, and interacts with our reality through His Holy Spirit which in Isaiah 63: 9- 10 is described as the "angel of His presence". Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. Eph 2: 18 For through Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. That is why when you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you are shutting the access to the Father and into heaven. Eph 3: 14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
5. Christ is in the body of the Father with the Father as the head, and we who are in the body of Christ with Christ as the head are also in the body of the Father. We are in them and they are in us (born again believers) when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
6. The Father creates our reality through Christ and for Christ. It is the Father who gives Christ the authority to be Lord of all creation.
I'll stop here for now. Let me know if you want me to continue.

“But God raised him from the dead, who appeared for many days to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem—who are now his witnesses to the people. And we proclaim the good news to you: that the promise that was made to the fathers, this promise God has fulfilled to our children by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you.’”

“For to which of the angels did he ever say, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you,’ and again, ‘I will be his father, and he will be my son’?”

Greetings Brother. I apologize for taking so long to respond. I had read your post and purposed to respond, but I couldn't remember which tread, which post, and which poster. I finally found it and am responding.
You asked for my thoughts and here they are (some are beliefs and some are speculations):
1. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He is the invisible God. That is how He is everywhere and knows everything (even the future) and can do anything.
2. The beginning of Time started when Christ (the Word) was formed out of the Father's essence, thus the Father and Son relationship. You cannot have a Father and Son relationship if Christ was created out of nothing. Also, this Father and Son relationship occurs twice, once in the beginning and the second at the birth of Jesus.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence. The Father and Son are One in that whatever the Father wants, the Son wants also. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
3. Christ (the Word) is the image of the invisible God, has His own mind, will, heart, and soul, but the image is not the same as the original. The reason Christ is the image of the Father is because the Father (the invisible God) expresses Himself in our reality through His Son.
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him; And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the Church; who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence.
4. The Father (the invisible God) communicates, empowers, and interacts with our reality through His Holy Spirit which in Isaiah 63: 9- 10 is described as the "angel of His presence". Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. Eph 2: 18 For through Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. That is why when you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you are shutting the access to the Father and into heaven. Eph 3: 14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
5. Christ is in the body of the Father with the Father as the head, and we who are in the body of Christ with Christ as the head are also in the body of the Father. We are in them and they are in us (born again believers) when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
6. The Father creates our reality through Christ and for Christ. It is the Father who gives Christ the authority to be Lord of all creation.
I'll stop here for now. Let me know if you want me to continue.

"the firstborn of all creation, because in Him were all things created in heaven and on earth..."