Jesus, before becoming a man

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B

bluto

Senior Member
#201
Aug 4, 2016
2,105
532
113
#201
Truthnightmare said:
It’s not that Jesus was a lesser being, He had a different role.
Why did Jesus say pray to the Father and not to Him?
Why did Jesus say the only one good is God?
Why does Jesus sleep, and the Lord doesn’t?
Why didn’t Jesus know the day and hour? And said God did?
Click to expand...
The answer can be found at Philippians 2:5-9. "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." That word although means , "in spite of the fact" that He was God He did not take advantage or hang onto what was already rightfully His. In short, He did not take advantage of His divine attributes.

At vs7, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant/man, and being made in the likeness of men. Vs8, "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. So to sum up, Jesus was already God and He then took on another form which was that of a man. And as a man He was completely obedient to His Father.

And as such, this is why He continued to pray to His Father, was able to sleep like the rest of us men. Did not know the day or hour of His own return and was able to say "AS A MAN" only God is good. This is not hard to understand. So let me as you a couple of questions? If Jesus is not God how come the disciple Thomas at John 20:28 said to Jesus Christ Himself, "My Lord and my God?" Remember, Jesus said at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

Also the Apostle Peter said the following at 2 Peter 1;1, "Simon Peter a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." So Trithnightmare, why did these two men identify Jesus Christ as their God (and there are others who identified Jesus as God) if He is not God? Would they not be contradicting what Jesus said at Luke 4:8? Any more questions, ask away.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#202
Aug 27, 2023
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#202
Heya bluto, I’m not saying Jesus wasn’t God..
As you pointed out,
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (Kurios] and my God (Theos]. KJV The use of both the word "Lord," and "God" in the above Scripture describing Jesus Christ is significant.
And in the Greek manuscripts both words ("Lord" and "God") have the definite article. Below is the Strong's definitions for both the definite article and the word "Lord" and the
word "God." [the definite article]: Greek word #3588 ho (hol; including the feminine he (hayl; and the neuter to (tol; in all their inflections; the def. [definite] article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted,
English idiom]: KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. Lord: Greek word #2962 kurios (koo-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as
noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title): KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir. God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinitys a deity, especially (with NT:3588 [the
definite article]) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very KJV - exceeding,
God, god [-ly, -ward
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#203
Jul 3, 2015
59,948
29,307
113
#203
Truthnightmare said:
Why didn’t Jesus know the day and hour? And said God did?
Click to expand...
I hope the following answers this question.

This is from a post our beloved brother @Aaron56 made recently: source

He spoke these words as Jesus: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". But Jesus died and was raised, becoming the Christ, a life-giving Spirit. His nature, then, transcended time and space. For example, while it was not possible to include all believers in Jesus as His body, because He was a singular man with one body, it is now possible to include all believers in Christ.

But let's look at a couple things:

First, what was said is "No one knows..." This is present tense. As in "no one knows at this time". So, who doesn't know,
He said no one (man), angels, nor the Son; so even He did not know. He did not know as Jesus. Only the Father knew.

Let's look at something the Holy Spirit revealed to John:

Revelation 1: "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon
come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."

So, right away we see that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ given to Him by God.
AND THEN, we see that it was given to an angel to give to John.

Jesus said "No one (man) knows, not the angels, not the Son only God. So...

No man > no angel > no Son > only God.

But Revelation 1 reverses the order of Jesus' words. In this instance,
Jesus who is now the Christ, gives it to an angel to give to John.

But how did Christ get it? From the Father.

When Jesus addressed His departure, He comforted the disciples with many words.
In John 16 this is recorded:

"He (the Father) will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things
that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

Jesus knew His Father was about to glorify Him with the glory He had in the beginning. He also knew
that all the Father had was His inheritance and that He (Jesus) was about to receive all the Father had.

Well, the Father knew the Day. So, Jesus, as the Christ, is about to receive the knowledge of the Day.

So, when He originally spoke "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels
in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" He was telling the truth, He did not know.

But now that He was going to the Father to inherit all the Father had, the revelation of the Day would be given to Him.

So, the original order was no man > no angel > no Son > only God.

But, now from heaven, through an angel, Christ gives the revelation to a man, John.

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come
to pass.He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."

God gives to the >Son gives to the angels >gives to man. This is a complete reversal of the order. The circle is complete.

But if that isn't enough, here is 1 Thessalonians 5

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that
the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,”
destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness...

(So he's making a comparison between two camps: those who ARE in darkness and those who ARE NOT in darkness)
..so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong
to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober."

We are NOT like those who live in darkness. Therefore, the Day of His return will not overtake us like a thief.

Conclusion: we do not presently know the day but WE WILL KNOW THE DAY. No one will know in enough time to
write a book about it or to get rich off of it, but those who remain sober and awake, in the Lord, will not be surprised.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#204
Aug 4, 2016
2,105
532
113
#204
Truthnightmare said:
Heya bluto, I’m not saying Jesus wasn’t God..
As you pointed out,
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (Kurios] and my God (Theos]. KJV The use of both the word "Lord," and "God" in the above Scripture describing Jesus Christ is significant.
And in the Greek manuscripts both words ("Lord" and "God") have the definite article. Below is the Strong's definitions for both the definite article and the word "Lord" and the
word "God." [the definite article]: Greek word #3588 ho (hol; including the feminine he (hayl; and the neuter to (tol; in all their inflections; the def. [definite] article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted,
English idiom]: KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. Lord: Greek word #2962 kurios (koo-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as
noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title): KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir. God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinitys a deity, especially (with NT:3588 [the
definite article]) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very KJV - exceeding,
God, god [-ly, -ward
Click to expand...
Fair enough, so what's with the questions?

In Him,
bluto
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#205
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
43
#205
Magenta said:
I hope the following answers this question.

This is from a post our beloved brother @Aaron56 made recently: source

He spoke these words as Jesus: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". But Jesus died and was raised, becoming the Christ, a life-giving Spirit. His nature, then, transcended time and space. For example, while it was not possible to include all believers in Jesus as His body, because He was a singular man with one body, it is now possible to include all believers in Christ.

But let's look at a couple things:

First, what was said is "No one knows..." This is present tense. As in "no one knows at this time". So, who doesn't know,
He said no one (man), angels, nor the Son; so even He did not know. He did not know as Jesus. Only the Father knew.

Let's look at something the Holy Spirit revealed to John:

Revelation 1: "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon
come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."

So, right away we see that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ given to Him by God.
AND THEN, we see that it was given to an angel to give to John.

Jesus said "No one (man) knows, not the angels, not the Son only God. So...

No man > no angel > no Son > only God.

But Revelation 1 reverses the order of Jesus' words. In this instance,
Jesus who is now the Christ, gives it to an angel to give to John.

But how did Christ get it? From the Father.

When Jesus addressed His departure, He comforted the disciples with many words.
In John 16 this is recorded:

"He (the Father) will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things
that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

Jesus knew His Father was about to glorify Him with the glory He had in the beginning. He also knew
that all the Father had was His inheritance and that He (Jesus) was about to receive all the Father had.

Well, the Father knew the Day. So, Jesus, as the Christ, is about to receive the knowledge of the Day.

So, when He originally spoke "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels
in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" He was telling the truth, He did not know.

But now that He was going to the Father to inherit all the Father had, the revelation of the Day would be given to Him.

So, the original order was no man > no angel > no Son > only God.

But, now from heaven, through an angel, Christ gives the revelation to a man, John.

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come
to pass.He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."

God gives to the >Son gives to the angels >gives to man. This is a complete reversal of the order. The circle is complete.

But if that isn't enough, here is 1 Thessalonians 5

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that
the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,”
destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness...

(So he's making a comparison between two camps: those who ARE in darkness and those who ARE NOT in darkness)
..so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong
to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober."

We are NOT like those who live in darkness. Therefore, the Day of His return will not overtake us like a thief.

Conclusion: we do not presently know the day but WE WILL KNOW THE DAY. No one will know in enough time to
write a book about it or to get rich off of it, but those who remain sober and awake, in the Lord, will not be surprised.
Click to expand...
Jesus said “no man no….” why is this present tense?
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#207
Aug 27, 2023
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#207
Magenta said:
Did you read the whole post? It did answer that question.
Click to expand...
Yes I did, and it would seem that confirmation for Matthew 24:36 being past tense does not stand on its own verbiage. I’m not saying I disagree,
But the word phrase “no one” or Greek word οὐδεὶς seems to extend much further than present.

3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing.

3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. 3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included withing the premise (supposition).

[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.]
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#209
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
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#209
Magenta said:
You keep saying that while disagreeing .:oops:
Click to expand...
I’m not disagreeing that Jesus is God… Even in the flesh Jesus was God… However; while in the flesh Jesus had to obey the laws of the flesh…
God never sleeps, Jesus did, that doesn’t make Jesus not God, it makes him bound by rules that God does not have to ascribe to. Pretty simple.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#210
Jul 3, 2015
59,948
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#210
Truthnightmare said:
I’m not disagreeing that Jesus is God… Even in the flesh Jesus was God… However; while in the flesh Jesus had to obey the laws of the flesh…
God never sleeps, Jesus did, that doesn’t make Jesus not God, it makes him bound by rules that God does not have to ascribe to. Pretty simple.
Click to expand...
If Jesus obeyed the laws of the flesh as you assert, He would have sinned. And we know He did not.

Sleeping is not a sin either.
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#212
Aug 10, 2019
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mywebsite.us
#212
Inquisitor said:
So the question is; what did Jesus empty Himself of, given, He is the total-sum, full, living, manifestation of...God?
Click to expand...
Philippians 2:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

After looking at the Strongs definition for the word 'reputation', I believe the wording of the verse pretty-much explains it quite well...

He humbled Himself.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#214
Sep 23, 2014
7,150
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#214
williamjordan said:
A "possibility" that is nowhere warranted in the text. It is a "possibility" only of the imagination. It's time we get our heads out of the clouds, and back into reality: What does the text say? That's the issue. No one has been able to prove that angels were present prior to Gen. 1:1, and unless there is ample reason to suggest it, then why even bring it up? It's not a "possibility," because the text does not say it is a "possibility."
Click to expand...
Somehow, I missed this reply, and the discussion has left me behind, but I'll pick it up back there anyhow.
Wasn't one of the arguments in circulation about the degree of participation of angels in the creation of man? Maybe I only assumed that to be the point in question. At any rate, if angels were created before man, then it is a possibility that they at least witnessed man's creation.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#215
Aug 27, 2023
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#215
Magenta said:
The laws of the flesh as you call them belong to the natural man.

Hey, you are the one that called it that.
Click to expand...
Ok…. As you said, “The laws of flesh belong to natural man” and Jesus followed these laws.
Jesus honored his mother and father.. Did God?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#216
Jul 3, 2015
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#216
Truthnightmare said:
Ok…. As you said, “The laws of flesh belong to natural man” and Jesus followed these laws.
Jesus honored his mother and father.. Did God?
Click to expand...
I did not say Jesus followed the laws of the flesh.

The natural man cannot obey God... because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does
not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

That in no way describes Jesus. You said Jesus had to follow the laws of the flesh. I say He did not.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#217
Sep 23, 2014
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#217
Inquisitor said:
So the question is; what did Jesus empty Himself of, given, He is the total-sum, full, living, manifestation of...God?
Click to expand...
It'd seem to me that it would have something to do with the infinite stepping into? the finite, and then back out again with us in tow.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#218
Aug 27, 2023
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#218
Magenta said:
I did not say Jesus followed the laws of the flesh.

The natural man cannot obey God... because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does
not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

That in no way describes Jesus. You said Jesus had to follow the laws of the flesh. I say He did not.
Click to expand...
The natural man can’t obey God?
So Abraham was not a natural man….

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#219
Jul 3, 2015
59,948
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113
#219
Truthnightmare said:
The natural man can’t obey God?
So Abraham was not a natural man….

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Click to expand...
Did Abraham receive the things of God?

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That should answer your question but I know it will not and you will say you not disagree while disagreeing.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#220
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
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#220
Magenta said:
Did Abraham receive the things of God?

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That should answer your question but I know it will not and you will say you not disagree while disagreeing.
Click to expand...
You seem to believe that the “natural” man is anyone whom is living in the flesh, period! That’s not what is being said.

5591 psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith).

5591 /psyxikós ("natural") typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven." 5591 (psyxikós) then sometimes stands in contrast to 4152 /pneumatikós ("spiritual") – the higher, spiritual aspect of humanity that develops through faith (4102 /pístis).

We are all natural men, every one that has lived in the flesh was a natural man. However; there is a difference between the natural carnal man and the natural spiritual man…
 
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