Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

Where are you going with this? When do you believe the new covenant was established?

Im curious about this. You seemed to stop responding when I asked you this.

do you only accept Paul's writings as the new covenant?

True and obedience which "follows" real faith led by the Holy Spirit and is produced "out of" faith is works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. There is a difference between mere "mental assent" belief (as the demons have) and saving belief in Christ, which the demons do not have.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Only genuine believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only genuine believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:7-10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Im curious about this. You seemed to stop responding when I asked you this.

do you only accept Paul's writings as the new covenant?

I accept all writings in the new covenant and Paul is not the only writer.

I agree with this, and if you read my posts I have never said anything different. and want to add that is a high quality post well thought out and well worded, I really enjoyed it

I would then ask, because this is what comes to mind, why am I accused of "justified by works" and such things by people here?

I simply said obedience is a good thing and I also post verses about obedience. Such as this

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Yet I get strongly disagreed with, I dont understand it, it is written, im just quoting it

Not trying to be redundant, but I want to be sure, I suppose I should have asked in this manner 1st.

In your view does that include Yahshua/Jesus own words? and His 12 disciples? and are they for Jew and Gentile alike?

Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo") guard, observe, watch over His commands BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. (1 John 2:3)

Was the new covenant fully established before the death of Jesus? See Hebrews 9. Are you more interested in the writings of the 4 gospel accounts than you are in the writings of Paul?

Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

The Covenant was not ratified until the shedding of blood, spoken of in Isa 53 and fulfilled in Matt 27

In your view does that include

Yahshua/Jesus own words?

His 12 disciples?

are they for Jew and Gentile alike?

do you put Paul's words above the others?

I don't put the words of Paul above Jesus' words or vice versa. All scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16) yet we also need to righly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Yeah, how can anybody know if they're REALLY saved in the first place?
No doubt they like to THINK they're saved, but that doesn't mean they ARE.
Me, I'm simply keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best..

Yeah, how can anybody know if they're REALLY saved in the first place?
No doubt they like to THINK they're saved, but that doesn't mean they ARE.
Me, I'm simply keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best..

That doesn't sound very smart.

On the other hand it's not very smart for people to throw away their armour and go around thinking "Yippee I'm saved, satan can't touch me now", and disregard this warning-
"Put on the full armour of God against the wiles of the devil" (Eph 6:11-18 )

On the other hand it's not very smart for people to throw away their armour and go around thinking "Yippee I'm saved, satan can't touch me now", and disregard this warning-
"Put on the full armour of God against the wiles of the devil" (Eph 6:11-18 )

I'm no good at guessing games. Get back to me when you figure out what you're trying to say.

OK last time I will ask because I keep asking, but I feel like im not getting a clear answer. I did clearly answer you question

Do you accept the following as part of the new covenant doctrine

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice?

His 12 disciples?

are they for Jew and Gentile alike?

Sounds like a loaded question to me. Why don't you stop beating around the bush and just lay all of your cards on the table.

We are told to endure

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

and we have NEED for endurance

Hebrews 10:36-8, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of the Mighty One you may receive what is promised. For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

to hold fast

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

to endure the trial

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

we must overcome

Revelation 3:21, “To him who overcomes I shall give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

here we are told how, they get harder as the list goes on

Revelation 12:11, “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death."

they overcame him because of

the Blood of the Lamb,

and because of the Word of their witness,

and they did not love their lives to the death

I already did, and I think it is a simple question, how you are relucktant to answer it castst doubt on your views, with that sais I think I do have a lot in common in the way you see things and respect you, I have read some of your posts in the other forums and I like that you speak against the evils ofthis world.

I will answer them 1st if that would help? Well maybe we should start a new thread on this topic to not derail here actually? Because honestly Im interested in this opic because yesterday I was told Im wrong in this matter, would you be interested in that?