Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

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Aug 10, 2023
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God is a diviner, of divination - with divinity

may we please look at the passage here in - Col 2:9

:9 For in him { Jesus } dwelled all the fulfillment of the divinity bodily.

a man was literally conceived of God, as God himself on earth, this man was the Spirit, Holy of the Father manifested in the flesh, this man was a physical manifestation of God’s invisible spirit which was the fulfillment,......

fulfillment - meaning = the completion, accomplishment, performance, achievement, - of God’s divinity to mankind

This Greek word Divinity / Divine - “ divinity “ has a meaning that is much more than to just simply posses an attribute of deification, worship veneration, glorification, exaltation, and worship.

But the word “ DIVINITY “ applied to the God of the Bible indicates his Omniscience, all knowing - and power of divinization, knowledge of the future discerning, forecasting, foretelling, perceiving and prophesy as fore - knowledge of predestination.

what if John Calvin was correct in some or most of what he preached but in the times in which he lived he simply had no way to correctly address and conclude the message of the manuscripts of the word of God simply because the Christian world had
not a modern translation of scripture for nearly 2000 years.

there would be a very skewed image of what the scriptures say exactly in their entirety that had built up for nearly 2000 years concerning the general theological and doctrinal mindset of most Christians around John Calvin and throughout the world. If the Christian world did not have a modern translation of the Bible for nearly 2000 years and only Latin was allowed to be translated

then . . the expressions and preaching's of many of the reformers would result into what we have today, disagreement, contradicting views and denominations and sects who are left trying to puzzle together the pieces. Do todays Christians look to the original manuscripts that have been banned - prohibited - outlawed and denied translation and understanding for nearly 2000 years ? ?

or are we simply finding ourselves trying to match up todays translations with the Spiritual Fathers and reformers instead of going directly to the original manuscript message in it's simplicity - because this is what society expects and demands - that we honor and respect the Spiritual Fathers and Reformers who fought and battled and many shed their blood and lives just to share the truth they felt was being suppressed and prohibited for nearly 2000 years ? -

this is like a bottleneck - that I do believe that only by going to the original manuscript message

can these the CONSTRICTIONS disagreements and honorable discussions of debate be laid to rest.

God bless you always
 
Jan 20, 2023
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A PERSON MUST ACCEPT JESUS AND BE A BELIEVER AND WE DO THAT BY FAITH.
Regarding your statement here quoted. Since it was approximately four thousand years after the fall of mankind until Jesus was born, how will individuals living before that time be credited salvation? For those living since the birth of Christ but have lived and died since, having never heard of Jesus, will salvation be granted any of them?
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

:)
From my reading of scripture it seems to me that God does all the work of salvation and men by their choice gets all the credit for their damnation.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,581
9,099
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Regarding your statement here quoted. Since it was approximately four thousand years after the fall of mankind until Jesus was born, how will individuals living before that time be credited salvation? For those living since the birth of Christ but have lived and died since, having never heard of Jesus, will salvation be granted any of them?
Same way we are "credited" Salvation. Through the Blood of Christ.

They looked FORWARD to Him. We look back to Him.


Job 19:25-27

New International Version

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,291
3,608
113
From my reading of scripture it seems to me that God does all the work of salvation and men by their choice gets all the credit for their damnation.
That doesn't even make any sense. If men have no choice in their salvation, how can they have a choice in their damnation?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,581
9,099
113
That doesn't even make any sense. If men have no choice in their salvation, how can they have a choice in their damnation?
People don't "choose" their damnation.

That is our natural state.

As far as who makes the choice of who is to be saved, it's either men or God.

1. God knows as he's knitting a human in the womb, that he will not "choose" Him, and knits him any way.

2. As God knits a human in the womb, He gifts that person with the faith necessary to choose Him. Thereby it is HIS Will who chooses Him.

3. As God knits ALL humans, He gifts ALL humans with the faith necessary to choose Him, but only those who hear the Gospel, are smart enough to understand it, and use THEIR will, choose Him.


So I'm going with God chooses.

If not, we have to explain why some choose Him after hearing the Gospel, and others don't.

Are those that choose Him smarter? Better than others? More moral?

So no matter how you slice it, God is in total control.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
That doesn't even make any sense. If men have no choice in their salvation, how can they have a choice in their damnation?
People often reject the truth, why is that so hard to believe. The truth compells people or the reject it. Being compelled is not a choice one makes, but rejecting is.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,291
3,608
113
People often reject the truth, why is that so hard to believe. The truth compells people or the reject it. Being compelled is not a choice one makes, but rejecting is.
I don't reject the truth, I reject what you said because it doesn't make any sense. Truth makes sense.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
I don't reject the truth, I reject what you said because it doesn't make any sense. Truth makes sense.
I wasnt saying you reject the truth. I was explaining what I meant.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

:)
There is no “in between” once you fully understand the conversation, salvation is either synergistic or monergistic. Soteriology 101.

Note: All satan’s false religions are “synergistic”. Just sayin’ 🤷‍♂️

Islam
Mormonism
Hinduism
Jehovah Witnesses
Voodoo
Satanism
Catholicism
All Liberal “Christianity”
Etc.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,581
9,099
113
There is no “in between” once you fully understand the conversation, salvation is either synergistic or monergistic. Soteriology 101.

Note: All satan’s false religions are “synergistic”. Just sayin’ 🤷‍♂️

Islam
Mormonism
Hinduism
Jehovah Witnesses
Voodoo
Satanism
Catholicism
All Liberal “Christianity”
Etc.
Perhaps you can give us common folk a brief description of "synergistic" and "monergistic"?
 

SpeakTruth101

Active member
Aug 14, 2023
874
186
43
1 John 1:6-7, “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and are not doing the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of יהושע Messiah His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
Perhaps you can give us common folk a brief description of "synergistic" and "monergistic"?
Synergism 👈
Monergism 👈

If the above articles sound like gibberish to some, perhaps it’s best to come back later rather than hastily establishing an uneducated soteriological position.

Note:
All Satanic counterfeits outline god(s) numerous requirements and man’s responsibility, his implied ability.

Christian orthodoxy outlines just one requirement, faith, and man can’t even do that without grace/charis: the divine influence upon the heart.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
 

613

New member
Aug 17, 2023
27
6
3
Baruch Korman, LoveIsrael.com
, enjoy. I also get a lot for another Messianic Rabi, Zev Porat on youtube.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,030
29,402
113
Job 19:25-27
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job 19:25-27a
:)
 

613

New member
Aug 17, 2023
27
6
3
And this just came to mind, the Book of Life, Revelation 3:5 "The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Would one's name need to be in the Book of Life to be erased?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,030
29,402
113
And this just came to mind, the Book of Life, Revelation 3:5 "The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Would one's name need to be in the Book of Life to be erased?

John 6:37
:)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
Baruch Korman, LoveIsrael.com
, enjoy. I also get a lot for another Messianic Rabi, Zev Porat on youtube.
Predestination is unto the adoption. The adoption is the future redemption of the body. Therefore, no one is predestinated until they are saved. Once saved, the Lord has determined your future to receive the redemption of the body. That is the destination of every believer.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
675
323
63
Predestination is unto the adoption. The adoption is the future redemption of the body. Therefore, no one is predestinated until they are saved. Once saved, the Lord has determined your future to receive the redemption of the body. That is the destination of every believer.
Amen!